Japanese Quince styling

[bdwarner]

I mostly lurk around here on B nut but I wanted to share a recent gem I've acquire which I am very excited about. The tree is a triple trunked Iwai Nishiki Japanese quince I received from Brent at evergreen. Im a little perplexed as how to approach the 3 main trunks.

The first picture is just for scale, the second is my proposed front, the third the 'back', fourth is a shot of the root spread, and the fifth is my long term goal.

I just did my first 'virtual' yesterday so go easy on me- somewhat of a sumo style. I know I still have a long ways to go, but I love everything about this tree! We have old gnarled cherry trees around here which I loosely based my design around. I did some light trimming and wiring on it to spread the canopy out a bit and eliminate branches that weren't working (also am using sticks to spread the larger branches.. excuse those, if there is a better way I'd love to hear about it). I don't feel experienced enough to do anything drastic with this tree so for now I'd like to work with what I got. Next spring ill work on getting it into a normal bonsai pot. Also any tips on dealing with the large pruning scars would be helpful- Ive never done carving or anything like that so I'm all ears. It looks a bit ratty now but it will drop all its leaves soon and perhaps a bare bones picture might be easier to read.

 

[JudyB]

Your virtual looks good, and actually looks relatively attainable with your material. You may want to think about a couple things that will take time to do, but the end results will be much better.
I would think about air layering just below the base, or lower the tree in the pot to take care of the large clumsy looking roots. You could do a program of cutting them back year by year I suppose as well, but if these air layer well,(don't know, don't have one) it might be a better way.
I would also think about cutting those trunks back to the first branch on each. In your virt, you are showing nice taper, and this tree currently doesn't have that.
Like I said, it will take time doing it this way, but if you have the patience, you'll get the reward.

 

[bdwarner]

Thank you for the insight judy. Looking at it now, the roots do seem clumsy. I will plan on positioning the tree lower into its bonsai pot next spring. When you say cut the trunks back to their first branches- say for example the far right trunk, I would be cutting it back down to that littlest furtherest down branch? Or the far left I would be cutting it down to the branches coming off the front of the trunk about halfway down?

I'm planning on bringing this little lady to a club meeting this sunday to hopefully get some more opinions. Id like to save drastic measures for maybe 2 years down the road.. my first priority is making sure it survives it's relocation from CA to MI!

 

[JudyB]

Best move you can make is to take it to your club meeting and see what opinions and suggestions you get there. They will be seeing the whole tree first hand and in 3D instead of a flat photo.
As far as cutting the trunks, yes, that's what I would do. I've found that being brave (as long as you know the tree will survive) and doing the work that needs done the first time (instead of chipping away bits at a time) saves you years on the progress of your tree. Right now, there is no taper, and little movement in the trunks, you can gain both with cutting to lower growth.

 

[fredtruck]

Flowering quince have a different method of styling than other trees used in bonsai. I think the best description available is one given by Colin Lewis in his books. The trunk is actually raised roots. You have excellent large roots to work with, and until you really know what you want to do, I would leave them alone.

If I were in your position, I would google "flowering quince bonsai," and then hit the images menu choice. Look at all of them. Most flowering quince are clump-style: a brief tangle of roots from which many branches grow. Before you do any styling, keep the tree alive and then make it flower. Fertilizing quince is a significant issue.

After you can do those things, then consider styling.

 

[dick benbow]

I found when I was first starting that too many opinions may be well...too many.

Find someone locally who has quinces in your weather zone and is sucessful.

I love quinces and have many types.

My thoughts about yours is that while your drawing design is beautiful, i keep most of my quinces for when they bloom. many varieties bloom better off first and second branches and NOT third or the very tip end. So Judy's suggestions about clipping back would probably give you a better show of color. as you can tell by the pictured japanese flowering quince, I like working with exposed roots. like many things design wise, it's subjective. What do you like?

Just protect the roots from cold and you'll do alright...

Quinces in the process of spring color are only second to the japanese apricot.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Pruning scars heal slowly...keep them toward the back. I think Judy is right, the main trunks need to be shortened; sooner the better.

I recently dug three toyo nishikis that had been growing in the ground for several years, and have been studying photos of some good J. Quince in kokufu books. Here are a few for inspiration. Look at the outstanding taper and movement these display...

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

A few more...

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

And a few more...

 

[bdwarner]

Thanks for all the input everyone.

Fredtruck, I've snooped your older quince threads and you have some beautiful trees sir. I'll have to do some research into that colin lewis book. Does anyone have any other sources of reading for j quinces? This is my third quince and have so far had good luck with my fertilizing routine. I've had a single trunk smaller quince for about 3 years now with a trunk about the size of a sharpie, blooms profusely and is a great sight but its overall style is lacking. The other is a gnarly clump style I won at a club auction a few weeks ago, I plan on continuing to 'clump' it up.

Dick, I envy your quince trees as well. And opinions are just that, take em or leave em lol. I like to hear them though. Interesting tips regarding the flowering habits. I know my little single trunk likes to throw blooms right off the trunk on occasion. I am weary of doing a trunk chop just yet.. perhaps in due time when I'm a little more confident. I will try to find a local quince afficianado and ask for help.

Brian, so if all trunks were shortened at a later date, I'm assuming I wouldn't want to cut them all the same height correct? There isn't much reading info on B nut about triple trunk style. Suppose thats a cue for me to hit the books. It will be interesting taking this quince in on sunday as its vance's mugo lecture and I think demo.. its gonna be a needle fest! I am excited to meet the infamous vance wood on the other hand though. Thanks again everyone

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian, so if all trunks were shortened at a later date, I'm assuming I wouldn't want to cut them all the same height correct?

I am excited to meet the infamous vance wood on the other hand though.

I see the tree shortened, tilted a bit to the right, and planted slightly deeper, as shown.

When you meet Vance, pinch his juniper for me. ;-)

 

[dick benbow]

This fall, I stopped my feeding in mid september. When I watered I did with a no first number
liquid fertilizer thru to mid october. This helps with next year's show of blooms. Allowing fruit to develop is something I try and avoid as it takes too much out of the trees.

 

[bdwarner]

Thanks for the virtual Brian I get what your saying now.

Dick that's good to know. I've been switching to dyna bloom in about mid september for the past two years for my single trunk quince and it seem to be helping the show come spring. I'm wondering what kind of fert you use? Ill continue the bloom fert until about mid november. I usually trim the flowers out once they wilt but last year I left one on and it got to about the size of a nickel before a local squirrel decided to feast on it... and rudely leave the remnants in the pot lol.

I'm excited to see the blooms on this iwai, they're supposed to be very dark red. My other quince is a dark pink to medium red depending on the spring sun and weather.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

'Iwai nishiki' flowering quince is one of the larger growing flowering quince. It can be used for larger trees, even a single trunk tree.

Your plan of getting it into a training tray and just growing it a year or two to get confident with its culture is a good idea. I saw this one on Evergreen's website, and almost bought it myself.

This was not a cheap tree. Take time to get to "know it". Quince do not trunk up much, the photos from Kofukuten that Brian shared are of trees that have more than 50 years on them. The trunks with taper were probably clip and grow - for 75 years or more.

You could actually think about making this a medium size bonsai, perhaps with a finish height of 20 to 40 inches. The flowers are large, over one inch across, so a larger tree style would be appropriate. Not all quince varieties work in the larger sizes, this one could.

I do find the roots awkward, but I would not cut them off. I would plant the tree deeper in the pot to bury the long roots, but that is my taste, I dislike most "exposed root" styles. There are rare exceptions, a few are very good. But the vast majority of exposed root trees look unbalanced and unhealthy to my eye. - personal taste.

So the possibilities are limitless. Grow it a while, bloom it, and then decide how you want to style it.

 

[bdwarner]

Leo I appreciate your input. I agree, this tree was an 'investment' for me. From what I understand this tree is as old as I am so I'm definitely not trying to make hastey decisions with this one. It will be interesting to see the size of the blooms compared to my others. I've noticed the iwai has much larger leaves then my other j.quince so I agree with your suggestion of a larger style tree. I do think that would be more fitting, how big it will be I suppose will be decided once I see those pretty blooms. I'm really looking forward to growing this tree out.

Also is that your iwai nishiki in your photo? I'd be interested to hear more about it.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Leo I appreciate your input. I agree, this tree was an 'investment' for me. From what I understand this tree is as old as I am so I'm definitely not trying to make hastey decisions with this one. It will be interesting to see the size of the blooms compared to my others. I've noticed the iwai has much larger leaves then my other j.quince so I agree with your suggestion of a larger style tree. I do think that would be more fitting, how big it will be I suppose will be decided once I see those pretty blooms. I'm really looking forward to growing this tree out.

Also is that your iwai nishiki in your photo? I'd be interested to hear more about it.

Hi
Yes, that one is mine. It was an $ 8 cutting in a 2 inch pot when I picked it up from Evergreen. Brent definitely has one of the more diverse selections of flowering quince cultivars I have been able to find. It was in a gallon pot at the time, I am growing it out to get some size. It was 2 years when the photo was taken. Now it is not noticeably thicker than then. I have a few more branches. I am working toward getting a lot of branches in order to have style choices. None of my flowering quince look like much yet. Hence, no photos.

I tend to buy a few 2 inch pot cuttings from Brent every time I order something else from Evergreen. For small bonsai - shohin size I think the cultivar 'Hime' is every bit as good as 'Chojubai', except 50 year old trees won't have the rough bark of Chojubai. Both have smooth bark until they have significant age, so the small size of 'Hime' leaves and flowers make it an inexpensive and worthy substitute for 'Chojubai', which is hard to get right now due to it being "in Fashion". Other good ones for shohin are 'Chojubai White Flowers', and 'Kan Toyo'.

Brent's newest offering "Toyo Nishiki Improved" seems to be a great one for the medium to large quince, worth picking up a small one for the long term future. It's new so large ones won't be available for a decade or two.

I have new starts of 'Contorted Red', and 'Contorted White', they seem to have a lot of potential, and probably are better for the medium sizes, maybe 10 inches to 20 inches.

They are incredibly hardy in the ground. In a pot my winters are too cold for reliable hardiness. But if I bury pots (plastic pots) in the ground in fall, they seem fine. I'm zone 5, last winter was -17 F with good snow cover. I think the snow cover is what helps the ones in the ground.

I tend to loose a lot of leaves during the hotter part of the summer, but once nights cool in middle August, they send a second flush of growth out. So if your tree looks bare in July, don't panic, it is natural. Shade during heat, full sun when cool seems to suit them. Don't let them get too dry between watering.

They are subject to many of the diseases roses and apples can get, though they seem much more disease resistant than either. Any spray used for apples or roses should be ok for flowering quince. Stay on top of black leaf spot. That one is my issue this year. I've been using Cleary's 1333 fungicide, a systemic granular you sprinkle on top of the soil. Seems to work okay.

In spring, after you see signs of leaf and branch buds starting to open you can prune pretty aggressively, also can prune when new growth is partially hardening, during late spring extension of growth. And then again when they start sending out a flush of new growth after the heat of summer. I wouldn't necessarily prune at all three times in the same year, but if your tree is really vigorous you could. First grow it a while and figure out what vigorous growth looks like, it is not just one or two branches, vigorous is lots of growth everywhere. (for those who keep track of my posts, my theme this year is to resist the urge to over-work my trees). Don't forget to feed your quince. They do appreciate some fertilizer.

Hope this helps.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I found when I was first starting that too many opinions may be well...too many.

Find someone locally who has quinces in your weather zone and is sucessful.

I love quinces and have many types.

My thoughts about yours is that while your drawing design is beautiful, i keep most of my quinces for when they bloom. many varieties bloom better off first and second branches and NOT third or the very tip end. So Judy's suggestions about clipping back would probably give you a better show of color. as you can tell by the pictured japanese flowering quince, I like working with exposed roots. like many things design wise, it's subjective. What do you like?

Just protect the roots from cold and you'll do alright...

Quinces in the process of spring color are only second to the japanese apricot.

The Japanese Apricot...is one that I have pondered of eventually adding to my collection one day.

 

[bdwarner]

Leo just out of curiosity I'm wondering how large your plastic pots are for the cuttings your growing out?

I've seen pictures of beautiful contorted varieties and I I'm definitely interested in getting one at some point. I think a white contorted would really be a stand out tree. Don't forget to keep us updated on their developement.

I've noticed my other quince looses a few leaves as well after the new growth begins to harden during mid summer. This year I had a bit of back budding after that along with the new leaves but I also went a tad heavy on the N right after it bloomed. I did prune the new growth back a bit so that is also another factor.

Luckily I havnt had any issues with disease or fungal problems but I may sit on some of that fungicide just in case. Lots of great information flying around in this thread, thanks everyone! I've read that quince are heavy feeders so they are on my frequent feeding routine along with my crab apple.

I opted out of bringing the iwai to the club meeting today. I felt like it would of been a little inappropriate seeing it was vance's mugo demo...I will eventually, I do have all winter lol.

 

[mcpesq817]

I've been playing with flowering quince for years, many of which I picked up from Brent. All varieties are incredibly slow to thicken up, with some a bit faster than others. Take a look at Brent's specimen page - some of those quince he's been growing for quite some time, and they don't have much caliper to them. I'm just planning on using them for shohin accent-typish plants. As someone else said above, the ones in the Kokufu ten books are many decades old.

The best way I've found to get a fat base is to let the suckers grow out, then cut them off after the base has widened. The upper trunks though will still thicken very slowly though. This year I think I'm going to try and move the hardier varieties to the ground and see if that speeds things up. If anything, I can do a lot of clip and grow to help get a lot of movement - more likely, the rabbits will help with that.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

In preparation for some landscaping work we're doing, I recently had to move a couple Toyo Nishiki JQ that were in the ground for 4-5 years. I cut them back pretty hard each fall, and let them grow wild for the year, and they responded pretty well. I'd have given them a few more years, but I was mostly satisfied with trunk development and movement. I really like the 4-trunk clump quite a bit, but I'll probably end up selling the twin trunk in the DaSu dish.