Japanese Red and Black Pine Help

[Erndogy]

Hi all,
I know this is probably basic stuff but after reading about it and watching videos, I still need some clarification on the subject of de-budding pines.

First, if I got it right, one should treat both red and black pine the same as they are both two needle pine right?

Here, I am posting both a red and black pine that have not had the buds cut. My question is, what do I cut?

Do I cut all three buds here? Do I leave one, which ever I see as the strongest, or do I leave the weakest?


Red Pine

Do I remove all 5 buds on this black pine?



Black Pine

So, as I understand it, by removing the buds that are growing on the trees now, will cause back budding throughout the trunk, or at least somewhere on the trunk? So I want to remove all the buds on the trees at this point and then select from the new ones that sprout which ones to keep and develop?

I have tried de-budding before on a couple of older pines I have but I don't know if I did that right and will soon be another thread. I want to know if I'm understanding it correctly.

Thanks in advance for your input.


Ernie

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

First, red pines grow slower than black pines, but they can be treated similarly...just give JRP more time to respond. Not sure how well it will ultimately do in SoCal.

Second, ideal timing is fall or summer to prune for back budding...now is probably the most stressful time for the tree. Summer is candle-pruning to build ramification....not what you need yet. In the fall, you can chop them lower (meaning lower than the point where this year's growth started) and it will set buds between needles that grow the following spring.

I'd definitely let the red pine grow until fall. Then cut it down pretty low, leaving enough needle pairs to develop buds that will open next spring. It needs to have low shoots early on, or you're grafting later.

You can likely cut the black pine down pretty low now and it will respond by budding again. However, the tree has invested all its energy into that top growth, which will, in turn, recharge the roots. Interrupting that process will slow the tree down.

Keep all needles attached to the trunk, and protect any buds that appear on the lower trunk. In a couple years, you can start identifying branches that are "final" branches and those that are sacrifice. More on that here:

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/03/02/sacrifice-branches-black-pine/

 

[Erndogy]

Thank you Brian for your response. Now, when you say cut it pretty low, do you mean chop it? And how low? To two or three inches? 5? is that too low?

Thanks for the link. The black pine is a 2yr old seedling. I got 10 of them from Patrick(pwk5017). I figured I would end up killing some of them and could try different techniques to see which worked best. He said he used the seedling cutting technique on them. Is that what this is? Cut it down to get low branching and then select which are sacrifice branches and which are final branches?

Ernie

 

[Adair M]

The seedling cutting technique is where the tap root is cut off, hoping to stimulate radial roots.

Brian's advice above is good.

But...

From the nature of your questions, it's apparant you're a beginner. You shouldn't be trying to learn on seedlings. They will need to grow about 20 years to amount to anything. The $100 or so you spent to aquire them would have been better spent on a tree that already has grown a trunk, and a few branches that you can style. Candle cutting is a technique to increase ramification and reduce needle size. It's a refinement technique. Your trees need bulk and the way to do that is to let them grow.

While these grow out, get a JBP that you can really work on. George Murakana always has some for sale on ebay.

 

[pwk5017]

Brian's advice is sound; however, all those pines need is modern substrate, fertilizer, water, and more fertilizer. Look up one of the recent threads of a guy and his 6 year old pines. You need several years of solid growth before you are at that point, which is the point of pruning etc. Right now you need to grow a desired trunk. I am in the process of wiring my pine seedlings. I suggest you do the same. Carefully apply the wire(i think i was using 2.0-2.5mm aluminum) without crunching new buds/needles. For this growing season, i let the wire bite in really deep, then unwind the wire--you wont be able to cut it off, because the plant will be growing around the wire if you do it correctly. This intentional scarring heals over in a year or two, but greatly increases the trunk diameter. So, to sum it all up: work out a water and fertilizer program, wire the trunks, dont do any pruning.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Thank you Brian for your response. Now, when you say cut it pretty low, do you mean chop it? And how low? To two or three inches? 5? is that too low?

Thanks for the link. The black pine is a 2yr old seedling. I got 10 of them from Patrick(pwk5017). I figured I would end up killing some of them and could try different techniques to see which worked best. He said he used the seedling cutting technique on them. Is that what this is? Cut it down to get low branching and then select which are sacrifice branches and which are final branches?

Ernie

Seedling cutting technique is when the root is removed shortly after germination. It eliminates a tap root, and should contribute to better radial roots and trunk flare.

When I say cut low, you can cut this low in the fall (this is also a JBP, 3 years from seed, and is a seedling-cutting).


Then, next spring, new buds will form between each needle-pair remaining. Let them grow, and in a couple more years, it will look bushy like this:


Then, you can identify some sacrifice branches and allow them to run wild, out and away from the bushy (final) branches. That will thicken the trunk, and with minimal pruning scars:


After a few more years, the design starts taking shape...and the sacrifice branches become pretty obvious:

 

[Dan W.]

I like that last one Brian. Great movement!

 

[pwk5017]

ha, maybe i should start charging $100 instead of the $40 or $50 for ten! Seriously though, $40 isnt going to buy you anything that wont need additional growing. Heck, I have spent hundreds on pine material that needed another 5 years of growing. Telling people how to spend their money aside, I find growing pines from a young age/seeds to be very rewarding and educational. Look at some other threads, it doesnt take 20 years to grow a nice tree from seed.

Brian, I suppose I just question the need for chopping off valuable growth that early? I need to post some pictures once I get home, but my pines have buds/branches from the nebari to the top candle. I have found vigorous uncontrolled growth to provide me with everything I need, low buds, sacrifice leaders, final branch candidates etc. I think people get a little psyched out about JBP buds and forever losing low branching, and if you dont have it now, you never will--all the usual sayings. All that stuff is true to a certain extent, but its no reason to overthink the process.

 

[mcpesq817]

Really nice work Brian!

 

[Jason_mazzy]

[video=youtube;Yn1FiRw2JBo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Yn1FiRw2JBo[/video]Watch this. then watch again befor you do anything. This is top advice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Yn1FiRw2JBo

 

[Erndogy]

From the nature of your questions, it's apparant you're a beginner. You shouldn't be trying to learn on seedlings. They will need to grow about 20 years to amount to anything. The $100 or so you spent to aquire them would have been better spent on a tree that already has grown a trunk, and a few branches that you can style. Candle cutting is a technique to increase ramification and reduce needle size. It's a refinement technique. Your trees need bulk and the way to do that is to let them grow.

I am most definitely a beginner. I have found advice for older trees but not seedlings so much. Also what I have found has been confusing and now I know why. It seems there are several ways to go about training pines for bonsai. Thank you for spelling it out which is what I was looking for. This is a technique some use strictly for refinement after the tree has some growth on it.
I do have older trees both evergreens and deciduous. I have gone so crazy collecting stuff that my wife has threatened to leave me. I have way too many trees for my experience. As I have learned from this forum and other bonsai enthusiasts, I am so glad I am not the only one with this disease.

I think I got a good deal from Patrick. I think I paid $50 including shipping.

Here is an older JBP I got from a nurseryman that had given it and another up for dead way in the back of his nursery by the junk pile. Its one of two I got from him for $10. It is at least 15yrs old and since planting it in the container its in, it has started to sprout low branches.



I am planning on starting a new thread about the tree and will get better pics then.

Brian's advice is sound; however, all those pines need is modern substrate, fertilizer, water, and more fertilizer. Look up one of the recent threads of a guy and his 6 year old pines. You need several years of solid growth before you are at that point, which is the point of pruning etc. Right now you need to grow a desired trunk. I am in the process of wiring my pine seedlings. I suggest you do the same. Carefully apply the wire(i think i was using 2.0-2.5mm aluminum) without crunching new buds/needles. For this growing season, i let the wire bite in really deep, then unwind the wire--you wont be able to cut it off, because the plant will be growing around the wire if you do it correctly. This intentional scarring heals over in a year or two, but greatly increases the trunk diameter. So, to sum it all up: work out a water and fertilizer program, wire the trunks, dont do any pruning.

Thanks Patrick. I think I will dedicate a few trees to Brian's method and at least these two will leave and fertilize and grow out. They already have low branching going on, especially the little one. The only thing I don't dare do now is keep them in 100% inorganic soil. It get very hot and dry and windy here in the summer, which is really already sputtering to a start here. From my limited experience with bonsai, or any plant in a pot, I know they can dry up very easily if I don't stay on top of them and I cannot guarantee I will be able to 100% of the time.



Ernie

 

[Erndogy]

Seedling cutting technique is when the root is removed shortly after germination. It eliminates a tap root, and should contribute to better radial roots and trunk flare.

When I say cut low, you can cut this low in the fall (this is also a JBP, 3 years from seed, and is a seedling-cutting).
View attachment 32847

Then, next spring, new buds will form between each needle-pair remaining. Let them grow, and in a couple more years, it will look bushy like this:
View attachment 32848

Then, you can identify some sacrifice branches and allow them to run wild, out and away from the bushy (final) branches. That will thicken the trunk, and with minimal pruning scars:
View attachment 32849

After a few more years, the design starts taking shape...and the sacrifice branches become pretty obvious:
View attachment 32850

Gratitude!

Ernie

 

[Erndogy]

[video=youtube;Yn1FiRw2JBo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Yn1FiRw2JBo[/video]Watch this. then watch again befor you do anything. This is top advice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Yn1FiRw2JBo

Gratitude Sir I will.

Ernie

 

[pwk5017]

Ok, here is what I was talking about concerning the need for pruning young pines. The seedling cutting technique ensures many buds down long along the length of the trunk. They are there, you just need to force the tree or coax the tree into developing those dormant buds. You can force the tree to do so by pruning--like brian does-- or you can coax the tree into developing the dormant buds by providing it with luxurious growing conditions. Here are two trees that i think are 3 years old. You can see all the buds I have down low. This happened without pruning. It happened because the tree is that vigorous from the right watering and fertilizing schedule.

 

[pwk5017]

Ok, your rescued tree is another example of what happens when JBP are treated properly. You have some nice growth down low that you can work with to create a nice bonsai. This diagram shows what I would do with that tree if it were mine. Might be somewhat unrealistic(I dont know the dimensions), but I am assuming the first set of buds(purple circle) is about 4" off the soil and the next set(green circle) is 7-8" from the soil. This diagram outlines a plan for a tree with a final height of about 18". The idea is to create taper and movement in a trunk that has neither currently. Dont think I am putting down your material though! Look up brent's articles on field growing pines, you will see you have a textbook situation. So, the plan is to reduce that sacrifice leader over time(red circle) and encourage green circle buds to grow into the next portion of the trunk. You would then chop that new leader back and grow another bud as the next portion of the trunk.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

View attachment 32955

Ok, your rescued tree is another example of what happens when JBP are treated properly. You have some nice growth down low that you can work with to create a nice bonsai. This diagram shows what I would do with that tree if it were mine. Might be somewhat unrealistic(I dont know the dimensions), but I am assuming the first set of buds(purple circle) is about 4" off the soil and the next set(green circle) is 7-8" from the soil. This diagram outlines a plan for a tree with a final height of about 18". The idea is to create taper and movement in a trunk that has neither currently. Dont think I am putting down your material though! Look up brent's articles on field growing pines, you will see you have a textbook situation. So, the plan is to reduce that sacrifice leader over time(red circle) and encourage green circle buds to grow into the next portion of the trunk. You would then chop that new leader back and grow another bud as the next portion of the trunk.

Agreed^^^^

 

[Erndogy]

View attachment 32955

Ok, your rescued tree is another example of what happens when JBP are treated properly ......diagram outlines a plan for a tree with a final height of about 18". The idea is to create taper and movement in a trunk ..........plan is to reduce that sacrifice leader over time(red circle) and encourage green circle buds to grow into the next portion of the trunk. You would then chop that new leader back and grow another bud as the next portion of the trunk.

No offense taken... yeah i originally thought about creating a literati, but after the low branches started to develop I thought I should hold up and think about some other way of continuing. Thanks for the info.....

Ernie

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

This happened without pruning. It happened because the tree is that vigorous from the right watering and fertilizing schedule.View attachment 32954

This second one looks pruned. It will be interesting to compare the relative vigor, movement and taper between those two.

 

[Erndogy]

View attachment 32953View attachment 32954

Patrick, what are you using for soil and what kind of containers do you keep them in?


Ernie

 

[pwk5017]

haha deceptive photograph, brian! That tree is not pruned, the trunk was wired into a lateral corkscrew, so that photo angle sort of conceals the trunk. I do not prune any of my pines when they are in containers. Your results are similar to mine though. For example, look at your seedling with the scissors in the frame. You have multiple needle buds that could develop over time and you definitely have two buds(very weak) that are pretty low. My 2 year old seedlings are carbon copies of your's. Its in the third year when I always see the low buds develop. Now, I have pruned 2 year old seedlings before and I have not been extremely satisfied with the results. Yes, you do get many buds to develop with even vigor, but the seedlings I pruned are not in the same league as the unpruned ones. Not even close. Keep in mind, I am in Pittsburgh, which is like zone 6a-6b, so I do not have the growing season of CA or the south. Plus, do I really need 8 buds down low? Not really, because I am looking for a branch, a new trunk leader and perhaps a sacrifice leader. I guess the added buds just provide further choices for branch placement. You look like you have produced some nice results, so dont think I am putting down your methods. It is just up north I do not have the luxury of pruning an entire season's growth for the sake of 8-10 low buds. How quickly do they develop in the ground? I just planted some out in the field last year. I like to keep them in containers for several years to focus on a solid nebari, but I am curious to see how much weight they pack on in the ground. I started pines from seed 5 years ago, so I only know how they react in containers.

Ernie, I like to plant my starter pines out in pond baskets. They provide awesome drainage, a cinch to wire seedlings into, and they are real cheap. Check your local big box store, because I bought 75-100 a month ago for about $1.25-$1.50 a piece while they were on sale. That is pretty hard to beat. They are 10"x10"x7". Soil can be just about anything that is discussed these days. I use 1:1 drystall pumice with turface, and then I throw in a bit of sifted pine bark. The turface and pumice can dry out on me pretty quickly during the summer, so I am trying out a small quantity of pine bark this year. I experimented with a few pines last year in this mix and I was happy with the results. After a year or two, your pines will be a tad large for the 10" pond basket. At this point I pot them up into a 12" or 13" square basket. These are the largest I have found. I am not sure if they make pond baskets larger than 13". I think they do, because I also have a koi pond, and my water lilies are planted in some enormous baskets. If they do make them, I dont know where to get them. Anyways, you can do colanders too. They are not available to me as cheaply as the pond baskets, so that is the deciding factor.