Japanese Red Pines - New trees, lots of questions

[tmpgh]

Hello guys. I've just made my first trip into conifers by purchasing two Japanese Red Pines from a local garden center. These trees have not been grown as Bonsai stock, so have many many flaws, which I knew when I purchased them. I see the trees as a chance to practice and learn with pines while at the same time having trees with trunks substantial enough to turn into decent trees in time.

Pictures of the trees are attached.

My plan (and questions):

1. Remove the obviously dead branches from the inside and clean out the duff from the trunk and pot.
2. Repot the tree into appropriate bonsai soil AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME. (What is the appropriate time to repot JRP?)
3. Choose the branches to keep and use as the basis for the future tree and eliminate the others. (When is the appropriate time to cut branches in this fashion? Is it common practice to seal wounds on pines?)
4. Induce back budding on the chosen branches by allowing the candles to extend and grow wildly rather than cutting to induce second flush of buds. (Is this the proper method of inducing back budding? I inferred this from info in lectures on youtube by Ryan Neil.)
5. Once back budding takes place, cut back to the new buds to eliminate the knuckling present on almost all existing branches. (When is the appropriate time to do this chop to the back buds?)

Thanks in advance. I look forward to the input you all will offer.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

what I would do........


wait till close to autumn after everything has hardened off and had plenty of GOOD positive energy stored up and.......................

remove the left trunk completely.

The right trunk doesn't seem to suffer much if any reverse taper.

all that positive energy should make new buds pop for next season AND will give you good trunk movement.

If you don't want to do that I'll take her off your hands! None of my nurseries ever carry red or black pines.... makes me mad.



ps also I would cut all the candles to 3 pairs of needles at the same time as removing the trunk. this will make any adventitious buds lower on the branches pop.
then next year you can shape the right side for a better look.

 

[tmpgh]

Thanks for your input. These are two trees, not one. Which one are you commenting on? I was surprised to see them at this nursery as well, which is what made me pick them up. I'd rather regret having material than regret not picking material up.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

this was the left tree.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

same goes for the right. you may want to do it in two seasons if you are worried about it but I have several pines here that have had more than 75% of the tree cut off at one time and they have all responded very well.

the one on the right is the main branch coming towards you as the new leader and keep the lower branches. that back thick trunk is reverse tapered.

 

[Neli]

Dont cut off the trunk flush with the trunk...leave like 5 cm for future jin...you can always remove it if it does not fit with your design.
You can also cut in autumn, as advised above to the last healthy needles on a branch and remove branches that are more than 2 coming from the same spot.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

For the first season when you do the chop you can leave a decent stub for sap flow. That gives the tree time to redirect sap flow. It's not 100% necessary I find but with such a large chop it may be beneficial to recovery. If you plan to even attempt a Jin that thick you may want to leave the stub quite a bit longer. I wouldn't even plan on a Jin from those main trunks IMO. I would plan for healing and good movement.



Ps. I'm always open to take them off your hands as I have a planned direction for them.

 

[tmpgh]

Hey guys, is it late enough into fall to do the chopping now, do you think?

 

[Adair M]

I would think so. Are the needles hardened off?

Here's how to tell: each needle should be dark green, and when you grab one, pull on it, it should try to stay attached. If it pulls easily, it's not hardened off.

A couple comments on your trees:

The big box store usually sell grafted trees. The graft is often under the soil level. Have you dug down into the surface soil to find where the roots start? This should be your first step before cutting any branches. The most important part of any bonsai is the lower trunk and nebari. Get that exposed, cutting away the plastic pot if uou have to. Then examine how the trunk emerges from the soil to determine the front. THEN, look at the branches and determine how you want the trunk to flow, and which branches to keep.

Here's an idea: you have so many options and branches, you may need to study these trees several times before you make the cut. So, at a session, bring some twisty ties, and tie twisty ties around your "keeper " branches. Don't cut anything.

A couple days later, come back and repeat the process. Keeping the same ones? If so, then maybe cut some of the ones you don't need. Don't remove more than about a third of the foliage at any one sitting.

 

[tmpgh]

Thanks for the advice. Sadly, on one of the trees, there is only one option for a leader. The rest have swollen knobs where three branches were allowed to emerge from one point.

I have gotten down fairly deep in there and it seems to look pretty good. I will uncover the bases today as you've suggested and perhaps tomorrow evening begin the work.

Also, when you say don't remove more than a third in a sitting, do you mean per season? How long between these sittings would you suggest?

Another question: If I do cutting on these trees this fall, will I be able to repot them into better substrate next spring, or should I give them a season to rest first?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Your list of tasks is in the correct sequence.

These look like excellent starting material. You are right, the trunks are thick enough that you don't have to wait for the trunk to bulk up.

If you have the patience - I would not do the chops this autumn 2014. Reason. It is clear you are going to need major root work, those trees look like they have been in their pots for many years. The more foliage with intact terminal buds you have, the quicker the recovery from root work will be. Think about Ryan Neil's lectures about the hormones from buds, especially terminal buds, governing root development. The foliage will send the signal to the roots to respond. Too little foliage, you will have a weak response from the roots. If you chop first, then repot, the trees may need 2 or more years to regain vigor and continue styling. Repot first, you might only need one summer to recover vigor. You will end up ahead on the schedule if you start with the roots. The old saw about "removing foliage to balance to the amount of roots" is actually wrong when it comes to conifers in a bonsai setting.

When to repot depends on how you winter your pines. They should be hardy in the ground in Pennsylvania, unless you are at high elevation. (Appalachians) You can repot in fall or winter if you are using a greenhouse that is kept above freezing but below 45 F. I store trees where they can get below freezing. In which case I repot after danger of freezing the pot and soil have past, after I see buds swelling and signs the tree is waking up from winter slumber. If you are in an area where your summers are not brutally hot, with low humidity, a second season that will work is summer, after new candles are expanded, for me, from middle July though to end of August. Protect trees that are summer repotted from temperatures below 25 or 27 F for the winter following a summer repot. But summer is not a bad time if you have mild summers. (meaning relatively few days above 90 F, I average fewer than 14 days a year over 90F, my summers are mild)

Also doing the root work first will reveal the nebari, and the possibly will reveal the possible choices for front and back of the tree. Remember, the 2 most important contributors to a successful bonsai are the first few inches of the trunk, and the flair of the roots at the soil surface. You need to see these before you choose which branches from the trunks you need to keep and which to get rid of. The nebari will determine the best angle of planting for the trunk. Get a chance to see these before removing branches. Potentially there are great trees in those dense bushes. You have lots of choices there. Get the root work done first, to have the best chance of finding the "great tree" in there.

On cutting back to back buds. A wispy little back bud won't be enough to keep a branch alive. You need more than a couple needles at the end of a branch. Better to leave a bit more, and remove in 2 steps than remove too much too quick.

Those are my thoughts. With "ideal" culture, you might get away with much more aggressive work, on a more compressed time schedule. But if you are uncertain about how to take care of your pines, I would go slow with your schedule, get through that list is 5 or more years instead of 1 or 2 years. You do have the sequence more or less right. But if you are confident about your pine culture, charge ahead. Pines have taught me humility. Just when I thought I had it, then the pines would prove me wrong.

One problem I had when first starting with pines, I did not recognize the difference between weak and strong vigor. I mistook a few good candles for good vigor, as a result I was forever keeping my pines at the "brink of death", by over working them. Vigor is a major flush of big fat buds and candles everywhere. When you have the big foxtails of new growth - then you can get away with radical work. Remember, they will need more fertilizer than you might expect from experience with deciduous like azalea, and hornbeam and such.

 

[Giga]

Looks like you have plenty of good advice, I'm just jealous as I have never seen a red pine in any store. It's on my wish list but I fear im gonna have to order one online to get one, ugggg