Japanese White Pine "Arakawa"????

mrcasey

Mame
Messages
242
Reaction score
191
Location
WV
USDA Zone
6
I just looked at Kigi nursery's web site again. They do, in fact, sell a P. parviflora cultivar called 'Ibo can'. I was mistaken on that point. However, I tree that I intended to order and the label attached to the plant was 'Arakawa'.

Sorry, Bill, we posted at the same time.
 
Messages
584
Reaction score
3,244
Location
Rochester, NY USA
USDA Zone
5-6
Labels often get mixed up. Also the use of foreign words with plant cultivars is also difficult especially with spelling and also not completely understanding the differences....
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,709
Reaction score
12,609
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
The trees in photos 19, 29 & 33 are all Wart Bark Japanese five-needle pine, Pinus parviflora 'Ibo Kan'
Well that means i have four Pinus parviflora " Ibo Kan" with low grafts that were purchased as " Arakawa" with labels attached. Reminds me of the old days in the tropical fish business when a bag would arrive from Hong Kong with a certain label that did not match the contents. Thanks for the clarification.
 

mrcasey

Mame
Messages
242
Reaction score
191
Location
WV
USDA Zone
6
This is a bit of a strange coincidence, Frank. It seems that we've both purchased what we thought were 'Arakawa' and none other than Bill Valvanis has identified them as 'Ibo Kan'. I have a lot of respect for Brent Walston. Brent sold you what Brent believed was 'Arakawa'. Just from reading his articles and forum posts, I can tell that Brent Walston is really intelligent and careful. He isn't omniscient, but the man writes with great care and precision. What's going on? How do we definitively differentiate one pine cultivar from another? Do we need the services of a historian, an anthropologist, and a biologist? Is the
idea of a cultivar (respectfully) really just a social construct in the same way that those on the left think about race and gender identity? This has gotten weird and interesting. I wanna know what osoyoung thinks.
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,709
Reaction score
12,609
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
This is a bit of a strange coincidence, Frank. It seems that we've both purchased what we thought were 'Arakawa' and none other than Bill Valvanis has identified them as 'Ibo Kan'. I have a lot of respect for Brent Walston. Brent sold you what Brent believed was 'Arakawa'. Just from reading his articles and forum posts, I can tell that Brent Walston is really intelligent and careful. He isn't omniscient, but the man writes with great care and precision. What's going on? How do we definitively differentiate one pine cultivar from another? Do we need the services of a historian, an anthropologist, and a biologist? Is the
idea of a cultivar (respectfully) really just a social construct in the same way that those on the left think about race and gender identity? This has gotten weird and interesting. I wanna know what osoyoung thinks.
I respect both parties, i am comfortable with a rough bark cultivar of JWP to work with and look forward to seeing them develop more mature characteristics.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Well that means i have four Pinus parviflora " Ibo Kan" with low grafts that were purchased as " Arakawa" with labels attached. Reminds me of the old days in the tropical fish business when a bag would arrive from Hong Kong with a certain label that did not match the contents. Thanks for the clarification.
This thread reminds me of the days when I was trying to buy Zelkova and many vendors were selling Chinese Elm mislabeled as “Zelkova”. I expect that confusion still continues.
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,709
Reaction score
12,609
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
This thread reminds me of the days when I was trying to buy Zelkova and many vendors were selling Chinese Elm mislabeled as “Zelkova”. I expect that confusion still continues.
Very true, in this case i was fortunate to see in person the mature stock before purchasing and know that i liked the bark characteristics. I also was impressed with the lower graft union. It is one thing for people to say it works well and another to actually see the evidence.
My plan is to grow out in ground or large container with focus on trunk size then attempt to ground layer off if possible to end up with JWP on its own roots with the rough bark characteristics. The mature Bark i saw at the nursery was rough small scale in nature with more black than grey. Needles were blue green. I did not notice any curve or curl as some descriptions mention.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
Messages
11,337
Reaction score
23,254
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
I have grown both 'Arakawa' and 'Ibo Kan'
@William N. Valavanis Bill V is absolutely correct on his ID.
'Arakawa' has a warty bark, with STRAIGHT needles, no significant twist to the needles. Needles are slightly shorter than 'Ibo Kan'.

'Ibo Kan' has a pebble bark, and has TWISTED needles, every needle twists along its length. You can see it, if you look at the ''white stripe'' of stoma along the length of the needle. The needle twists along its axis. It is visible even on young shoots that are too young to develop the pebble bark. Needles are slightly longer than 'Arakawa'

The bark of the two does look different in trees more than 10 years old, but the difference is more subtle than the difference in the needles.

I have never seen the 'Nishiki' cultivar of JWP, so I can't comment about that.

I lost all my JWP after a health issue 12 years ago. Don't know if I'll ever get back into them.

I also tried air layering 'Arakawa'. After 4 years the air layer still had not formed roots. It developed a small disk of callus, but never developed roots. I would be cautious about air layer attempts. Make sure that the placement of the air layer won't leave you with a dead mother tree if the air layer fails. Not saying it is impossible, just saying it likely is not easy, not 100% guaranteed, probably less than a 10 % chance of success. I have not tried recently, my last JWP air layer attempt was more than 10 years ago.
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,709
Reaction score
12,609
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
I have grown both 'Arakawa' and 'Ibo Kan'
@William N. Valavanis Bill V is absolutely correct on his ID.
'Arakawa' has a warty bark, with STRAIGHT needles, no significant twist to the needles. Needles are slightly shorter than 'Ibo Kan'.

'Ibo Kan' has a pebble bark, and has TWISTED needles, every needle twists along its length. You can see it, if you look at the ''white stripe'' of stoma along the length of the needle. The needle twists along its axis. It is visible even on young shoots that are too young to develop the pebble bark. Needles are slightly longer than 'Arakawa'

The bark of the two does look different in trees more than 10 years old, but the difference is more subtle than the difference in the needles.

I have never seen the 'Nishiki' cultivar of JWP, so I can't comment about that.

I lost all my JWP after a health issue 12 years ago. Don't know if I'll ever get back into them.

I also tried air layering 'Arakawa'. After 4 years the air layer still had not formed roots. It developed a small disk of callus, but never developed roots. I would be cautious about air layer attempts. Make sure that the placement of the air layer won't leave you with a dead mother tree if the air layer fails. Not saying it is impossible, just saying it likely is not easy, not 100% guaranteed, probably less than a 10 % chance of success. I have not tried recently, my last JWP air layer attempt was more than 10 years ago.
Thanks for the info, i am going to work on with the stock i have acquired! So far i have just separated a couple of Deion's and grafted them onto JBP rootstock. If i am going to experiment then would like to have more opportunities and eventually perhaps get it right.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,870
Reaction score
7,429
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
@junmilo while you have @William N. Valavanis eyes on this thread,
I hope you don't mind me asking for a possible ID on my said "Azuma" in my avatar though not Arakawa...
I understand there's more than one Azuma cultivar. This is on JBP rootstock.
DSC_2839.JPG DSC_2841.JPG DSC_2843.JPG DSC_2845.JPG DSC_2846.JPG
Probably has needle cast. I left it alone last year to strengthen a weak tree.
This is a week out of dark dormancy, it will have better colour when the new needles emerge.
Flowers or pollen cones are purple, soon to come. Will be my 1st year to remove them manually for health.
 

0soyoung

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,496
Reaction score
12,832
Location
Anacortes, WA (AHS heat zone 1)
USDA Zone
8b
Sorry to be butting in, but this doesn't look like Azuma to me. I acquired one last year from WabiSabiBonsai.com who shows an older Azuma looking like this (note a few yellow tipped needles) pinus-parviflora-azuma-spec.jpg. The one I acquired is much younger and looks like this 2018-09-28 11.59.01.jpg. It has some growth clusters much like kokonoe and needles are shorter than the 1.5 inch length reportedly typical of Azuma.

... hardly a decent dendrological accounting; your tree just doesn't seem to have the proper growth habit, @Japonicus.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,870
Reaction score
7,429
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
Sorry to be butting in, but this doesn't look like Azuma to me. I acquired one last year from WabiSabiBonsai.com who shows an older Azuma looking like this (note a few yellow tipped needles) View attachment 232788. The one I acquired is much younger and looks like this View attachment 232789. It has some growth clusters much like kokonoe and needles are shorter than the 1.5 inch length reportedly typical of Azuma.

... hardly a decent dendrological accounting; your tree just doesn't seem to have the proper growth habit, @Japonicus.
My tree also on the rebound from a weakened state. I think I failed to photo the trunk if needed.
Your trees pictured are vigorous, and probably not just brought out of the dark. Nonetheless, a proper ID
would be great before I kill it :)
 

0soyoung

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,496
Reaction score
12,832
Location
Anacortes, WA (AHS heat zone 1)
USDA Zone
8b
My tree also on the rebound from a weakened state. I think I failed to photo the trunk if needed.
Your trees pictured are vigorous, and probably not just brought out of the dark. Nonetheless, a proper ID
would be great before I kill it :)
Well, it does have lots of buds!
 

Maloghurst

Chumono
Messages
750
Reaction score
1,096
Location
Seattle WA
USDA Zone
8b
The above pictures are all 'Arakawa'. Pictures 1,2, & 3 are of the same 3 year old graft. The top pic is the back of
the graft with the remaining dead jbp root stock stump extending up a few inches. The second pic is the tree in its
entirety. The third picture is of the graft union. The fourth picture was a newer 'Arakawa' graft from late last February. The last pic is the donor plant that I purchased from Kigi nursery. Both of the grafts are on Japanese Black Pine stock. I don't know what the donor plant is grafted onto, but I wouldn't doubt if it's eastern white pine.
The needles look like JBP. Is this arakawa JBP or JWP?
 
Top Bottom