Japanese white pine experiences?

MichaelS

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I would like to here how the various growers of this species maintain the tree in a horticultural sense.
That is, watering, feeding, heat tolerance, sun, potting mix and frequency and anything else you can think of which might help us understand the needs of this plant better. Eg, do you think they prefer tight feet? I have seen many Japanese pictures of trees thriving in tiny pots or stone slabs etc. Some with almost no soil!
Trees on their own roots NOT grafted onto another species!
I sowed about 100 seeds in 2000. Since then I have sold quite a few (I'm sure they are all dead by now) Over the years I lost maybe 20 or 30 from root diseases. Maybe more?? But I have about 10 left that are now in terra cotta pots and a very open mix. They seem to be doing ok but I still feel I don't have the handle on them that I would like. I am able to get pretty good mychorrizae on their roots.
Can you help with your experiences?
 

Adair M

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JWP are mountain trees. They prefer dryer conditions than JBP which are coastal trees. They are very intolerant of salt in their water. They also prefer cooler summers and cooler winters. Some say they don't like full sun. I don't think it is the full sun as much as they don't like their roots getting hot. In the mountains, their roots would be likely growing under large rocks which would keep them cool. JBP, on the other hand, thrive in the heat.

That is one reason they are so often grafted onto JBP stock. Their roots get too hot in bonsai pots. But grafted onto JBP, the JBP roots don't mind. So, in the summer, shade the roots if they're on their own roots.
 

MichaelS

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Thanks Adair. Yes cool roots! That's why I took them out of black plastic and into unglazed clay. Them seem much happier with that arrangement. There will come a time when I put them into display pots and then I must work out a way to keep the roots cool during our intense summer heat. When you say salt, do you mean NaCl or salts in general?
 

Arcto

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I would like to here how the various growers of this species maintain the tree in a horticultural sense.
That is, watering, feeding, heat tolerance, sun, potting mix and frequency and anything else you can think of which might help us understand the needs of this plant better. Eg, do you think they prefer tight feet? I have seen many Japanese pictures of trees thriving in tiny pots or stone slabs etc. Some with almost no soil!
Trees on their own roots NOT grafted onto another species!
I sowed about 100 seeds in 2000. Since then I have sold quite a few (I'm sure they are all dead by now) Over the years I lost maybe 20 or 30 from root diseases. Maybe more?? But I have about 10 left that are now in terra cotta pots and a very open mix. They seem to be doing ok but I still feel I don't have the handle on them that I would like. I am able to get pretty good mychorrizae on their roots.
Can you help with your experiences?
What is your elevation there and minimum winter temps?
 

Adair M

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Thanks Adair. Yes cool roots! That's why I took them out of black plastic and into unglazed clay. Them seem much happier with that arrangement. There will come a time when I put them into display pots and then I must work out a way to keep the roots cool during our intense summer heat. When you say salt, do you mean NaCl or salts in general?
Salt. Sodium Cloride. Like what’s in the ocean. If you live on the seashore, they probably won’t do well at all due to the salt in the air.

I have three JWP on their own roots, but they did not grow from seed. They’re layers. Two airlayered Zuisho and one ground layered Kokonoe. I have several grafted on JBP, and two grafted on Lodgepole.

The named varieties most often used for bonsai are mostly dwarf varieties. And are propagated by cloning. The seeds may not have the characteristics of the parent tree. So seedlings May have longer needles, curled needles, tendency to produce long internodes, etc that are not what is expected from a JWP.

Then there is bark issue. They take 25 years before they start to produce rough bark.

JWP can be frustrating to grow.
 

Arcto

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I would expect that they would require more cold dormancy or decline over time. Interesting that you can grow them there for that period of time. I’m at 1,200m and it can drop below-30c here. My grafted JWP do ok with these conditions. One issue I’ve had is sunscald on the trunks. The thin bark evidently doesn’t hold up well to a lot of afternoon solar exposure.
 

Adair M

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I would expect that they would require more cold dormancy or decline over time. Interesting that you can grow them there for that period of time. I’m at 1,200m and it can drop below-30c here. My grafted JWP do ok with these conditions. One issue I’ve had is sunscald on the trunks. The thin bark evidently doesn’t hold up well to a lot of afternoon solar exposure.
Can you post a picture of the sun scald?
 

augustine

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Finicky In my experience. I was discussing them with an experienced bonsai artist, whom many here would know, and he said " we'll they're 5 needle pines" meaning you can't always figure out what happened.

Julian Adams grows them from seed and does well with them . Within the last few years I grew regular jwp and southwestern white pine both of which I had around 5 years. Died suddenly. Both were from seed

Cause of death root rot I think despite very well draining substrate. Only recommendations I could give is do not overpot and the must be sheltered from an extended period of rain.
 

iant

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I have killed two. Compared to JBP they’re very hard to keep alive where I live. (Redwood City, CA.) I once asked Brent what he thought the chances were I’d be able to keep one of his grafted JWP alive and he said basically zero.... So I bought it and it died. He’s more or less discontinuing them as I think everyone kills them and he has high losses as well. Not sure what the secret is but my backyard can get downright hot several days in the summer (like 100 deg.) that’s probably not good. I grew them on the morning only sun side though....
Ah well. I’m certain I’m not in their preferred climate so I’m done with ‘em.
Ian
 

Adair M

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I sorry to hear of everyone trouble with JWP.

I used to have trouble with them, too, so that’s why I got into JBP. I’ve lately been having success with JWP.
 

Arcto

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Can you post a picture of the sun scald?
You ask so much of me! Ground froze. Pushed step stone up into gate and jammed it closed. Means scaling the elk fence to access bonsai area. Please give me a little time... this is gonna involve ladders.
 

Adair M

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You ask so much of me! Ground froze. Pushed step stone up into gate and jammed it closed. Means scaling the elk fence to access bonsai area. Please give me a little time... this is gonna involve ladders.
Lol!! It can wait!
 

Arcto

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No worries. I have to check em at some point anyway. There will be no pics of me getting over the fence though. Not a pretty sight!
 

BonsaiFurLife

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My experience has been ok with them. Zone 7-8 Nc. Have a few ive managed to keep alive for about 5 years now. Some grafted probably on eastern white pine roots and some seed grown. Mine seem to want to lose any needles that were not current season growth tho. Maybe not enough sun? I have had terrible luck with any pine i plant in the ground between voles and disease i guess.
 
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