Japanese white pine experiences?

[M. Frary]

NOTHING to be jealous of! Maybe you might take personal arrogance and argue point with Ryan Neil? Randy Knight? Walter Pall?
They see beauty you refuse to see. I also see.

You know I would. They don't intimidate me and they may learn something about trees from me. No matter what you think they aren't the last word in bonsai. Nobody is.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Ponderosa pines are fine for their bark but the foliage is too much.
I've actually been thinking of trying a ponderosa to graft Scots pine foliage onto.
It isn't Japanese foliage but it still isn't from here. Europe.
But on second thought why screw up a good Scots pine just to make a ponderosa look better.
I'll just leave them things to the people who think they are good for bonsai.
I talked to John Wall about this very thing last year when I suggested his demonstration RMJ would be so much better with shimpaku foliage grafted on it. He said some people actually like the long wispy foliage but he saw where I was coming from.
For me it's all about the image. The tree should have the smallest foliage possible to be in scale. No trees except for seiju elm even come close. Ponderosa pine foliage isn't even in the conversation. May as well have an Eastern White Pine.
Japanese Black pine,Scots pine and Mugo pine can all have their needles reduced dramatically.

 

[Vance Wood]

Pots, Lodgepole and Shore pine make good bonsai. I happen to have two bonsai with lodgepole trunks. Yamadori trunks. But they didn’t have any low branches, so they had to be grafted.

At that point, since they needed grafts, a decision is needed: what to graft on? Lodgepole? JBP? JWP?

Universally, almost everyone agrees that JWP has the most attractive foliage. The downside is it’s very slow growing, and it takes a long time to develop mature bark. And they don’t “fatten up” quickly.

With branches, not getting fat is actually a good thing on conifers. Thin branches actually helps to make the trunk look thicker. (Deciduous are styled differently). Careful styling can hide the immature bark. So, JWP white pine won the day.

Today, 20+ years after the grafts, the trees are spectacular! Beautiful Lodgepole trunks with JWP foliage.

Many collected junipers get better foliage grafted on, as well.

The goal, Pots, is to make the best possible image using the material we have to work with.

You are right about Shore and Lodge Pole Pines, lets not forget about the Limbar Pine. They stand up well to any tree in the world.

 

[Hyn Patty]

Interesting thread. I'm very keen to try some natives like the Pitch and Virginia pines. But I have also started JBP from seed and see how it goes. There is the lovely JWP at the local Arboretum near Asheville that I just LOVE. That's an elegant, beautiful tree. Our new place is up around 4,000 feet in a zone 6 area and is probably plenty cold enough for JWP but dry enough? It rains up here a LOT. I just hope I can keep the JBP seedlings going all right while I continue my search for some good natives to collect (or their seed).

 

[Adair M]

Interesting thread. I'm very keen to try some natives like the Pitch and Virginia pines. But I have also started JBP from seed and see how it goes. There is the lovely JWP at the local Arboretum near Asheville that I just LOVE. That's an elegant, beautiful tree. Our new place is up around 4,000 feet in a zone 6 area and is probably plenty cold enough for JWP but dry enough? It rains up here a LOT. I just hope I can keep the JBP seedlings going all right while I continue my search for some good natives to collect (or their seed).

Just use a good inorganic mix, you’ll be fine with JWP NEAR Asheville.

 

[ChrisChung]

How would a JWP on its own roots do in zone 9a?

 

[Dav4]

How would a JWP on its own roots do in zone 9a?

Poor long term prognosis... JWP are marginal at best in zone 8. Stick to JBP.

 

[Adair M]

I just re-read this thread. Since it’s inception, I have acquired a few more JWP. Another zuisho, A couple Kokonoe, and a couple of seedlings. And one of “unknown” origin, that I suspect was a seedling.

one of the seedlings is an “exposed root semi-cascade”. It has a great exposed root base, but the needle quality is not as good as the grafted cultivars. The needles don’t firm in tight clumps, they tend to twist and splay out a little, and the distance between needle clusters is farther than the JWP with the tight foliage. It’s something I’ll just have to live with.

another seedling is a tree I just bought fromBrussel’s. It’s a multi-trunk clump, just imported. I was able to get it shipped to me while it was still barerooted. That way, I could get it into my soil mix. (I don’t care for the mix Brussel uses). It’s doing well, budding out. The needles are about an inch, but don’t twist or splay. Again, not as good as the grafted cultivars, but they don’t detract.

The “unknown” JWP is a tree imported 30 or 40 years ago. It has extremely short needles, but they always have a yellowish color to them. It’s a type of dwarf, grows much like a Zuisho. But far lighter colored. It appears to be on its own roots, but no one knows if it was a seedling or a cutting or layer, or what. I showed it last fall at the NC Arboretum.

JWP do spectacularly well for me. @Dav4 has seen them, he would agree! I use a fast draining inorganic soil, and I don’t withhold water. Heck, I sometimes water them three times a day! I don’t fertilize in the spring, I wait until they’ve finished growing. And start fertilizing mid summer. Except, I do give them a bit of fish emulsion a couple times in the spring. I also give them “MicroMax” micronutrients every spring. This is a product I buy from Julian Adams. The trees seem to like it. I give it to all my pines and junipers. They’re in full sun. When I water, I make sure to run all the hot water out of the hose first, so the water is cold when I spray it on. I try to just water the soil to reduce the chance of getting fungus in the foliage.

(Exception: the new “bare rooted” JWP from Japan DOES get sprayed down with water several times a day! Helps to keep the foliage from dessicating while the new roots are getting established. It’s in 3/4 day sun. It used to be in morning sun, but when it started budding out, I moved it to more sun. I have it close to my back door so that I can inspect it each time I step outside!)

 

[ChrisChung]

@Adair M

Sounds interesting. Care to share some pictures of that unknown cultivar?

I use a fast draining inorganic soil, and I don’t withhold water.

Do you also water fully in Spring? I heard that careless watering could result in longer needle length.

Also thanks all for all the great knowledge. Learning a lot here.

 

[Adair M]

@Adair M

Sounds interesting. Care to share some pictures of that unknown cultivar?



Do you also water fully in Spring? I heard that careless watering could result in longer needle length.

Also thanks all for all the great knowledge. Learning a lot here.

Yes, I water in spring. I usually water around noon. Today, I haven’t watered yet, since it rained last night. I probably will water around 3 or 4 o’clock.

if it’s low humidity, or windy, I water more often.

My friends who have Boon bonsai apprentices in Japan tell me hat Kapan is very humid. And Japanese species seems to prefer humid conditions to dry. Yet, we all know pines do poorly with “wet feet”.

so, my approach is to water frequently, but not heavily. I would never set a pine in a bucket of water! I use a fast draining, coarse mix, so that water drains thru quickly.

I can’t say for sure exactly why JWP do so well for me, but I will say that I’ve been very successful with them ever since I’ve been using Boon mix.

 

[ChrisChung]

Wow amazing tree! Not sure if its the scale of the tree, but the needles really do look tiny! Bark is also incredible. Thanks for sharing

And Japanese species seems to prefer humid conditions to dry.

How does this compare to the natural environment where JWPs are found? I thought humidity was fairly low up in the mountains.

What does the Boon mix consist of? Also what pH do JBP and JWP roots prefer?

Sorry for all the questions!

 

[Adair M]

Wow amazing tree! Not sure if its the scale of the tree, but the needles really do look tiny! Bark is also incredible. Thanks for sharing


How does this compare to the natural environment where JWPs are found? I thought humidity was fairly low up in the mountains.

What does the Boon mix consist of? Also what pH do JBP and JWP roots prefer?

Sorry for all the questions!

Boon mix is equal parts akadama, pumice and lava. With a handful of horticultural charcoal and a handful of granite grit per 5 gallon bucket, all sievef to a uniform size.

I have never been to Japan, I have no idea of the humidity of the Japanese mountains. I’m sure it’s dryer than at the coast. My comment about humidity comes from my friends who are/have been apprentices in Japan.

I live in the foothills of North Georgia. While it’s “humid” here, it’s not as humid as Atlanta. I think all “humidity” is relative.

I have no idea what pH pines prefer. A bit on the acid side, I believe. I can’t tell what the pH of my soil or water is. I use the same soil for pines and conifers alike. I might vary the % of akadama depending if the tree needs more (or less) water. The only exception is azalea. Azalea I use straight Kanuma.

 

[ChrisChung]

That tree is much smaller than I imagined. Wow, it's phenomenal. You should be proud!

I might vary the % of akadama depending if the tree needs more (or less) water.

Do you find that JBP rootstocks need more water or do they simply tolerate wetter conditions?

 

[Adair M]

That tree is much smaller than I imagined. Wow, it's phenomenal. You should be proud!


Do you find that JBP rootstocks need more water or do they simply tolerate wetter conditions?

I treat JBP and JWP water/soil the same. Deciduous trees might get more akadama.

 

[Adair M]

That tree is much smaller than I imagined. Wow, it's phenomenal. You should be proud!


Do you find that JBP rootstocks need more water or do they simply tolerate wetter conditions?

Here is a picture of that same tree taken in 2003, long before I owned it:

It had that yellow coloring in it’s needles even back then.

 

[Japonicus]

And start fertilizing mid summer. Except, I do give them a bit of fish emulsion a couple times in the spring. I also give them “MicroMax” micronutrients every spring. This is a product I buy from Julian Adams. The trees seem to like it. I give it to all my pines and junipers. They’re in full sun.

I've been using Julians wire and the MicroMax better than 10 years. Good stuff.
Full Sun helps tremendously and is why with my work schedule and visiting mom afterwards I would never have a problem
dunking the pot to the rim for 5 minutes if it were on the light side to heft and mid-late Summer. Though this rarely occurs, it does.

Here's my problem with my JWP, on BP roots. The roots are quite coarse, and in Springtime, three years or so after repot,
water passes through the soil just great, yay. AFTER shoot extension and hardening off, when it's past the time to repot,
the darned roots become basically root bound, and dunking the pot becomes the best way to keep it healthy
until the following Spring, so I can repot at bud move. This displays a lack of intimacy with the tree in the observance area,
and record keeping on my part in the past. So I should recognize the difference in that current Spring and the 2 prior but
sometimes it takes me by surprise, and I'm like, I should have seen this coming and referenced a time sheet or log actually.

 

[Japonicus]

Sharp !
@Adair M where did you get this pot, is it Chinese?
It looks identical to one I got last year over in Conyers, less the nails.

 

[Japonicus]

@Adair M Bit of red. I bought this pot to put that shimpaku I had in a nursery can for better than 12 years
but I couldn't take the roots down that far 1st go. Sorry to veer from the threads title, but the pot
here looks identical in style to the one your JWP is in. Yors is a but more sharp on the edge, this one more rounded.

 

[Adair M]

View attachment 297155
Sharp !
@Adair M where did you get this pot, is it Chinese?
It looks identical to one I got last year over in Conyers, less the nails.

The pot is Yamaake. Japanese.

About your trees becoming potbound: that’s pretty much normal. One thing you can do: every fall, just before winter dormancy, perform “soji”, which is removing the top 1/2 to 3/4 inch of soil, and replacing it with fresh. This removes weeds and weed seeds, the fines left over from fertilizer, etc. it improves drainage.

About your trees drying out and requiring dunking to water: that’s ok occasionally, but I try not to ever let my trees dry out completely. I know some people say to “not water until the soil is dry”. I don’t do that. If the akadama on the surface of my pots isn’t dark, it’s dried out some, so I’ll water. When I water, I don’t drown them, but I do give them a good soak. Often, I’ll give them a good soak, go water some others, then come back to wet them again on a second pass. I find doing this gives the center of the root ball urs best chance to absorb some water.

Back in the day, I used to lose trees due to lack of water. I don’t any more. I err on the side of overwatering, perhaps, but I don’t lose trees by overwatering.

 

[Japonicus]

I’ll give them a good soak, go water some others, then come back to wet them again on a second pass

Yes, spot on. Best way to water mostly.

"soji" huh? Ok sounds promising. Will do.

Chinese, Japanese it looks sharp either way.
This "Lotus?" style of pot I've taken a big liking to.
Got 3 similar pots last year 2 without the nails.

 

[BonsaiDawg]

I just re-read this thread. Since it’s inception, I have acquired a few more JWP. Another zuisho, A couple Kokonoe, and a couple of seedlings. And one of “unknown” origin, that I suspect was a seedling.

one of the seedlings is an “exposed root semi-cascade”. It has a great exposed root base, but the needle quality is not as good as the grafted cultivars. The needles don’t firm in tight clumps, they tend to twist and splay out a little, and the distance between needle clusters is farther than the JWP with the tight foliage. It’s something I’ll just have to live with.

another seedling is a tree I just bought fromBrussel’s. It’s a multi-trunk clump, just imported. I was able to get it shipped to me while it was still barerooted. That way, I could get it into my soil mix. (I don’t care for the mix Brussel uses). It’s doing well, budding out. The needles are about an inch, but don’t twist or splay. Again, not as good as the grafted cultivars, but they don’t detract.

The “unknown” JWP is a tree imported 30 or 40 years ago. It has extremely short needles, but they always have a yellowish color to them. It’s a type of dwarf, grows much like a Zuisho. But far lighter colored. It appears to be on its own roots, but no one knows if it was a seedling or a cutting or layer, or what. I showed it last fall at the NC Arboretum.

JWP do spectacularly well for me. @Dav4 has seen them, he would agree! I use a fast draining inorganic soil, and I don’t withhold water. Heck, I sometimes water them three times a day! I don’t fertilize in the spring, I wait until they’ve finished growing. And start fertilizing mid summer. Except, I do give them a bit of fish emulsion a couple times in the spring. I also give them “MicroMax” micronutrients every spring. This is a product I buy from Julian Adams. The trees seem to like it. I give it to all my pines and junipers. They’re in full sun. When I water, I make sure to run all the hot water out of the hose first, so the water is cold when I spray it on. I try to just water the soil to reduce the chance of getting fungus in the foliage.

(Exception: the new “bare rooted” JWP from Japan DOES get sprayed down with water several times a day! Helps to keep the foliage from dessicating while the new roots are getting established. It’s in 3/4 day sun. It used to be in morning sun, but when it started budding out, I moved it to more sun. I have it close to my back door so that I can inspect it each time I step outside!)

Well isn't that special!