Japanese White Pine Farm

[JasonG]

I honestly think everyone is blowing the size out of porportion.... look in the back ground, the red arrows are landscape sized trees... the blue arrows are bonsai sized trees. Bigger bonsai than most here would play with but not that big. I have bigger in my collection....

Then the argument about the branches..... well I don't see an issue there either. Look at the tree closer, everything is already in the right places. It is a matter of refinement once it is in a pot.... look at killer JWP's that are in Japan and you will see this tree is very close to what you see in a pot.

And I honestly think that there are more people here who can take care of a tree like this than given credit for...... atleast thats what I think

My 2cents!

Jason

 

[Tachigi]

the blue arrows are bonsai sized trees.

Dam Jason you got good eyes, I think I herniated my left eye straining to see what you did

 

[Anonymous User]

Jason, I agree with all three points you made, good catch on the size issue.



Will

 

[tom tynan]

I thought one of the big differences between a large white pine grown in the field [let's assume the roots have not been worked , ie. pruned regularly and then re-planted] vs. a monster RMJ or a beast of a Ponderosa [8" to 10" thick trunk] is that the only way to get a RMJ of that size out of the ground - is to find it growing in a rock pocket or crevice - thus the tree has a complete and intact root system. Size of the collected tree aside - the roots are found intact. Whether the tree survives collection is another story..depending on the skill/experience of the collector and the aftercare. My friends out in Oregon definitely have their skills developed when it comes to collecting these large native trees.

We really don't know much about the posted white pines other than what we see - these bad boys could have massive root balls that could never be reduced without stressing the tree to the point of killing it - so why speculate any further ??

Tom

 

[Ashbarns]

I thought one of the big differences between a large white pine grown in the field [let's assume the roots have not been worked , ie. pruned regularly and then re-planted]
We really don't know much about the posted white pines other than what we see - these bad boys could have massive root balls that could never be reduced without stressing the tree to the point of killing it - so why speculate any further ??

Tom[/quote


It's quite possible they do work the roots. If you take a look at the photographs you will see that they all live on the top of mounds, which leads me to think that undercutting could take place every so often. Trees commanding this sort of money, nothing would be left to chance.

Ash

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Trees commanding this sort of money, nothing would be left to chance.

Note also in the one photo there is a bamboo brace that is pushing a branch down (or holding it in place). These trees are probably worked over very frequently. When I get a chance I will post some photos of japanese black pines from the same nursery.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Given the fact that Japanese growers have been known to burn trees that don't measure up as opposed to releasing them on the market and drive the prices down, I wonder how many of these we are drooling over will simply be burnt?



Will

Good observation and point. Hence how many will wind up in gardens. We know the Japanese (wealthy) have tremendous spreads when it comes to their gardens. The latest edition of BF is proof of that.

 

[Rick Moquin]

I agree that acquiring one of thise huge pines is equivalent to receiving the proverbial White Elephant as present.

It would take so much to style and maintain it, that one would have nothing left for any other tree. This would be the only bonsai one would have.

The only way that one could handle this and also have fun with it, would be to go through a specific training of how to routinely maintain this specific category of trees. It would be a step-by-step thing, and marked on the calendar.

I believe the majority of the folks who purchase these trees, whether in the landscape or bonsai pot have caretakers for them, which the latter is widely used in japan and forms part of the economy.

 

[Rick Moquin]

I honestly think everyone is blowing the size out of porportion.... look in the back ground, the red arrows are landscape sized trees... the blue arrows are bonsai sized trees. Bigger bonsai than most here would play with but not that big. I have bigger in my collection....

Then the argument about the branches..... well I don't see an issue there either. Look at the tree closer, everything is already in the right places. It is a matter of refinement once it is in a pot.... look at killer JWP's that are in Japan and you will see this tree is very close to what you see in a pot.

And I honestly think that there are more people here who can take care of a tree like this than given credit for...... atleast thats what I think

My 2cents!

Jason

I didn't mean to insult anyone with my observation here Jason. When I mentioned the lack of ability, you may notice I did use myself first and then went on. I did use the "frequent" participants of the forum. Although the stereotype could well be inappropriate, I believe the gist got accross. These are not your average bonsai and as someone has stated probably imperial. They are not as easy to work with as lets say a 20-30 year old trees.

From your nursery you have some rather large material and as you stated in one of your post, because the value of the collected material, you just don't sell it to anyone. If the individual has not demonstrated the ability to care for the tree let alone take it to the next level, then you pass on the sale. I admire and support your integrity, regardless of the amount of cash the individual has. That is where I was coming from.

 

[Graydon]

When I get a chance I will post some photos of japanese black pines from the same nursery.

Stop. Teasing. Me.

 

[Attila Soos]

Here is an interesting comparison:

Some of the shohin-sized pines are very expensive in Japan. They easily command between $5,000 - $10,000, just like these here.

Now imagine two pines: one shohin and one of these giants, placed next to each-other, on a table, both selling for the exact same price. If you had the money, how would you decide which one to buy? And wouldn't be funny to see the same price tag on both?

 

[Rick Moquin]

Very interesting observation! It's a no brainer, neither.

As stated shohin are extremely popular in Japan/Asia these days and good quality trees demand high prices. Unfortunately I wouldn't spend what they want for one. As Will stated it is supply and demand that keeps the price up.

When it comes to jumbos, as I'll never have the required skills to look after it and take it to the next level, I'll laos pass.

On the other hand, a decent pre-bonsai may be a way to go in the future. It is a little more reallistic and affordable in my case.

 

[Anonymous User]

Interesting question Attila and considering that a shohin is much more difficult to create, I am surprised that some people think these larger bonsai would be hard to maintain.


Will

 

[Attila Soos]

Interesting question Attila and considering that a shohin is much more difficult to create, I am surprised that some people think these larger bonsai would be hard to maintain.


Will

I know, it's me.
It is the number of hours spent on a large tree. And the huge weight that needs to be handled. Imagine the number or hours needed to wire every twig. Then, the hours to take off the wire, to de-candle, to thin out the needles (take off each dead needle - how many needles has that large tree?). Then you have to lift the tree without touching the bark (you need a crane, of course), it is very hard to handle a tree with ancient bark, one touch and a large plate of bark falls off.

To me, all this would be just a pain in the neck..

Then compare this with a shohin, where you have 3-5 main branches, and 15 twigs. And you can lift it with two fingers and work it on your computer desk.

 

[Chris Johnston]

I honestly think everyone is blowing the size out of porportion.... look in the back ground, the red arrows are landscape sized trees... the blue arrows are bonsai sized trees. Bigger bonsai than most here would play with but not that big. I have bigger in my collection....

Then the argument about the branches..... well I don't see an issue there either. Look at the tree closer, everything is already in the right places. It is a matter of refinement once it is in a pot.... look at killer JWP's that are in Japan and you will see this tree is very close to what you see in a pot.

And I honestly think that there are more people here who can take care of a tree like this than given credit for...... atleast thats what I think

My 2cents!

Jason

Jason, I agree with you completely, but comparing this tree to trees in the background is iffy at best, due to perspective differentials. The one thing that is constant, though, is needle size. How big do you think these trees are if they are truly Japanese White Pines? My guess is 48 inches tops, probably 42 or less.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Interesting question Attila and considering that a shohin is much more difficult to create, I am surprised that some people think these larger bonsai would be hard to maintain.


Will

Hard to maintain not so much as time consuming. But the great collections have many trees easily as involved as these. More than one or two of these babies and you had better be full time.

 

[Attila Soos]

.. you had better be full time.

That's why the master-apprentice in Japan works so well, economically (mainly for the master). An advanced apprentice starts working on client's trees in the morning, and the master picks him up late evening (Ryan confirms this, with Kimura).

It may be one of the reasons, why Japanese masters are worried that bonsai, as we know it, is slowly dying in Japan. There are less and less apprentices who are willing to work for food and lodging for 5 years, and the master simply wouldn't have the time to maintain so many of these large trees. Something will have to give (I predict that the masters just won't be able to earn the millions that they did until now in Japan, today's youth will need $$$ or they will go elsewhere).