Japanese white pine Miyajima nursery stock.

TrevorLarsen

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I bought this tree for $160 today and had some questions I didn’t find here in other posts. This is my first JWP. I live in northern Utah so it is very dry which from what I have read JWP like less water but I am guessing the dry air will be a big challenge to keep the tree alive.

My first main questions are when should I chop to top off as a sacrifice? Hopefully the pictures are clear of its size. Also how low should I cut it? Should I cut off branches I order to give the smaller but lowest down branches more light? Also any info in the best time of year to work on it would be great. I’m not reporting this year so I was thinking of pruning some but maybe I should just let it grow?

Also how doesn’t the graft look? hopefully it won’t break and kill the tree one day.
 

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Frozentreehugger

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I bought this tree for $160 today and had some questions I didn’t find here in other posts. This is my first JWP. I live in northern Utah so it is very dry which from what I have read JWP like less water but I am guessing the dry air will be a big challenge to keep the tree alive.

My first main questions are when should I chop to top off as a sacrifice? Hopefully the pictures are clear of its size. Also how low should I cut it? Should I cut off branches I order to give the smaller but lowest down branches more light? Also any info in the best time of year to work on it would be great. I’m not reporting this year so I was thinking of pruning some but maybe I should just let it grow?

Also how doesn’t the graft look? hopefully it won’t break and kill the tree one day.
I’m cheap and JWP are rare here . So I would attempt to air layer the top . My understanding is they can be somewhat difficult to air layer , but it’s a cultivar . And if your going to chop and throw away . What do you have to lose . Make a second or several trees ,
 

TrevorLarsen

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I’m cheap and JWP are rare here . So I would attempt to air layer the top . My understanding is they can be somewhat difficult to air layer , but it’s a cultivar . And if your going to chop and throw away . What do you have to lose . Make a second or several trees ,
Yeah I was thinking of doing that even though I read it was very unlikely to work.
 

jszg

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I read somewhere that air layers on pine work best on young branches, the cut made at a branch junction. I wish I could tell you where I found that advice.

If it is nursery stock, it'll be grafted onto strobus or strobiformis, maybe Scots pine. It'll probably look a little funny, but I think with a good choice of "front" it will be fine. The first two species probably have very similar bark.

(If I had that tree and I was confident in my ability to execute grafts, I would put in some buds right at the rootstock/tree union's scar. As the tree stands right now, it really isn't the worst graft job in the world. Judicious use of deadwood might help. Your pine is a lovely plant. I adore white pines- but the relationship so far is a bit of a one way street)
 

TrevorLarsen

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Thanks for the advice. Hopefully one day I will be confident in grafting enough to do just what you suggest.
 

Frozentreehugger

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I read somewhere that air layers on pine work best on young branches, the cut made at a branch junction. I wish I could tell you where I found that advice.

If it is nursery stock, it'll be grafted onto strobus or strobiformis, maybe Scots pine. It'll probably look a little funny, but I think with a good choice of "front" it will be fine. The first two species probably have very similar bark.

(If I had that tree and I was confident in my ability to execute grafts, I would put in some buds right at the rootstock/tree union's scar. As the tree stands right now, it really isn't the worst graft job in the world. Judicious use of deadwood might help. Your pine is a lovely plant. I adore white pines- but the relationship so far is a bit of a one way street)
Almost any pine can be grafted to another root stock . You are correct on popular rootstock . But interesting info I uncovered . Iseli nursery ( commercial supplier to a lot of nurseries in the USA) grafts all there JWP to mugo . This makes sense as they do a lot of work with mugo and I for one am thinking . Graft dwarf cultivar to dwarf under stock . I am considering ordering trees thru a supplier from them and asked . Iseli directly
 

Frozentreehugger

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I think that's a bad idea. Dwarf rootstock usually has super low vigor so the chances of a graft taking are lower than on regular rootstocks.
I’m not suggesting doing it . I’m relaying info that Iseli nursery . Commercial nursery in north west USA . Who do not sell to public. Only to commercial businesses like a tree garden Centre . This is what they graft There JHP to . Hence considering the size of there operation . A large portion of trees available in North America will be from them , and grafted to mugo
 

TrevorLarsen

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I’m not suggesting doing it . I’m relaying info that Iseli nursery . Commercial nursery in north west USA . Who do not sell to public. Only to commercial businesses like a tree garden Centre . This is what they graft There JHP to . Hence considering the size of there operation . A large portion of trees available in North America will be from them , and grafted to mugo
You are right that it’s on mugo stock since I got it from a nursery that orders from Iseli, so thanks for that info I assumed it was on JBP.
 

Frozentreehugger

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You are right that it’s on mugo stock since I got it from a nursery that orders from Iseli, so thanks for that info I assumed it was on JBP.
No thank you . I have to order from a nursery that deals with iseli . But they don’t order JWP
So I’m ordering blind next fall . Your exactly what I have been looking for someone that has one . To see what the graft looks like . Much appreciated . I was just there today looking at a nice dwarf Scot’s pine . Until I seen the terrible graft . Thinking if I order JWP and they look like that I will be very unhappy
 

Japonicus

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I bought this tree for $160 today and had some questions I didn’t find here in other posts. This is my first JWP. I live in northern Utah so it is very dry which from what I have read JWP like less water but I am guessing the dry air will be a big challenge to keep the tree alive.

My first main questions are when should I chop to top off as a sacrifice? Hopefully the pictures are clear of its size. Also how low should I cut it? Should I cut off branches I order to give the smaller but lowest down branches more light? Also any info in the best time of year to work on it would be great. I’m not reporting this year so I was thinking of pruning some but maybe I should just let it grow?

Also how doesn’t the graft look? hopefully it won’t break and kill the tree one day.
Nice find for $160 really. Never heard of them grafted to mugo before, but ok.
Does that mean then that we move our root work to July instead of Spring, IDK.
Typically we root work pines in Spring as the buds begin, to move.
I wait till July to root work mugos.
Mine are grafted to JBP and Scots pine.

The time to simple prune and wire is Fall. To remove the top, late Winter (mid February) is good.
However, the graft isn't that bad looking, and to gain girth on the trunk do not remove the top.
The top is where the most growth hormones are produced from, and will continue to thicken the trunk.
It will also blend the graft to near undetectable much quicker with the top left to grow on for now.
...and I don't mean 2 years then chop. Think a little longer term to make this worth your effort.
There is one variety of JWP that is known to take to air layers. I forget to variety, but Adair M has
a magnificent one in his collection that I've seen personally. The mid section foliage of this tree
would probably be better spent attempting to graft to JBP root stock IMO.
 

TrevorLarsen

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Nice find for $160 really. Never heard of them grafted to mugo before, but ok.
Does that mean then that we move our root work to July instead of Spring, IDK.
Typically we root work pines in Spring as the buds begin, to move.
I wait till July to root work mugos.
Mine are grafted to JBP and Scots pine.

The time to simple prune and wire is Fall. To remove the top, late Winter (mid February) is good.
However, the graft isn't that bad looking, and to gain girth on the trunk do not remove the top.
The top is where the most growth hormones are produced from, and will continue to thicken the trunk.
It will also blend the graft to near undetectable much quicker with the top left to grow on for now.
...and I don't mean 2 years then chop. Think a little longer term to make this worth your effort.
There is one variety of JWP that is known to take to air layers. I forget to variety, but Adair M has
a magnificent one in his collection that I've seen personally. The mid section foliage of this tree
would probably be better spent attempting to graft to JBP root stock IMO.
Thanks for your suggestions I’ll take your advice and wait for a long time to chop. I have some mugos so I am aware of their schedule and now you really have me thinking. I imagine you are right that I should root work when they like it. If anyone has other input I would be very interested.
 

Frozentreehugger

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Thanks for your suggestions I’ll take your advice and wait for a long time to chop. I have some mugos so I am aware of their schedule and now you really have me thinking. I imagine you are right that I should root work when they like it. If anyone has other input I would be very interested.
I agree with japonicus. As per letting the top grow as sacrifice . I have a EWP that is in a similar form. Like yours the best attribute . Is the distance without foliage of trunk . To the top . This allows you with some trimming in the middle . To have a sacrificial top . Growing up and away from the bottom . Future tree . Therefore not interfering . But providing shade to the bottom . As for the repotting in summer . I have no experience . This has always been a option with all pines as far as I know . And of course in modern times is heavily practiced with mugo . I don’t grow mugo and honestly do not know why it is recommended to repot in summer . But I see no reason to believe spring will still not work . But it’s a interesting point . Japonica makes . Further the exact info I received from iseli is that as of last summer all JWP . Produced by them in the last 8 years is grafted to mugo . Before that other rootstock could have been used ( including mugo ) . My understanding of why JBP was used first in Japan and other places . Is A availability . But also for its vigor and a important factor was . To attempt to make a more heat tolerant tree . Than JWP
For warmer climates . As I said before I think
Iseli s use of mugo , one must consider there extensive work with mugo . Making it a simple choice
 

Japonicus

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As I said before I think
Iseli s use of mugo , one must consider there extensive work with mugo . Making it a simple choice
What size scion is best for starting grafts? I need to learn how to graft.
I have a 15 foot tall JWP in my front yard. I looked through all the Mugo at Lowes yesterday
and all they had were multiple pencil sized trunks making up the 2 gallon pots.
I didn’t even bother to look at the price. Maybe once every 5 or more years do I see a mugo
here locally, that is worth considering for bonsai. Root stock for scions though, I’ve never had
in mind when looking through them. What should i be looking for?
 

August44

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I know I am going to get yelled at, but I don't understand why these big growers that are doing all of this grafting don't do a better job of grafting, and why are they grafting to stock that looks and grows very different than what they are grafting to it? I have a JWP that was cutting grown (now about 4" tall) so I know it can be done. Wonder why they're aren't more of them?
 

rockm

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I know I am going to get yelled at, but I don't understand why these big growers that are doing all of this grafting don't do a better job of grafting, and why are they grafting to stock that looks and grows very different than what they are grafting to it? I have a JWP that was cutting grown (now about 4" tall) so I know it can be done. Wonder why they're aren't more of them?
Because they're selling LANDSCAPE trees. People buying landscape trees don't give a crap about nebari, or graft unions. They're not looking at the trunk, they're looking at the top and silhouette of the tree. Only bonsai folks really give a crap about graft union, unless they're EXTREMELY bad. Grafting is labor and resource intensive. It shows up in the price tag. Grafting is NEVER an exact science anyway, you have to approximate starting sizes and both the scion and root stock are different plants, growth rates are always going to be different.

There are some suppliers who graft specifically for bonsai--done generally on the root crown and not the trunk, but you generally pay for that more exact finish on the trunk and even then you're not going to get an exact match of scion and root stock.
 

mrcasey

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What size scion is best for starting grafts? I need to learn how to graft.
I have a 15 foot tall JWP in my front yard. I looked through all the Mugo at Lowes yesterday
and all they had were multiple pencil sized trunks making up the 2 gallon pots.
I didn’t even bother to look at the price. Maybe once every 5 or more years do I see a mugo
here locally, that is worth considering for bonsai. Root stock for scions though, I’ve never had
in mind when looking through them. What should i be looking for?
If you're interested in grafting down low, I'd suggest ordering bulk seedlings. You'll find that the diameter of the trunk down in/on the root tissue is more likely to match the diameter of the scion. I've ordered from Musser Forests in 25 and 50 seedling lots. Was going to order jbp this spring, but they were sold out.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I’m not suggesting doing it . I’m relaying info that Iseli nursery . Commercial nursery in north west USA . Who do not sell to public. Only to commercial businesses like a tree garden Centre . This is what they graft There JHP to . Hence considering the size of there operation . A large portion of trees available in North America will be from them , and grafted to mugo
I understand, thanks for the clarification. Mugo has some dwarf cultivars but generally speaking they are not a dwarf when it's var. pumillo or mughus. It is a rather slow growing single flush genus though! I've seen it a bunch of times that people refer to mugo as a dwarf, so I just wanted to point out that it's not, unless specified. It might help some people for future reference.
 
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