Japanese White Pine....non-graft?

cmeg1

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Good luck to you seed growers. My research led me to believe JWP seed need to be super fresh, and when I tried to germinate, I got 3/200 or so. That was with 12 weeks cold stratification. My seed supplier might not have been the best.

For reference, here is an average JBP from this year, photos taken today:
View attachment 332733

And my best JWP from this year:
View attachment 332734

Both hydro, under lights, no CO2. Roots cut on JBP, not cut on JWP. I know MC has successfully root cut JWP but I only got 3 so I played it safe!

Best of luck, loving your experiments & shared knowledge Curtis 👍
Great job with your indoor nursery lol.
When Shumacher gets seed they will notify me.
Their website states JWP seed will store for 10 years!!!
I had 10 year old carpinus coreana seed sprouting in the stratification.
Fw Schumacher also states a 60 day warm stratification followed by a 90 day cold stratification.I also soak overnight in a solution of fulvic acid and kelp.Kelp has gibberellinns and they are responsible for the very first reactions in a seed embryo to sprout.Fulvic acid increases permeability and transfer into seed.
My warm stratification is in my tent at about 80f in a blacked out covering.I believe I will have good germination.Sais’ 40-60% expected and if you do not warm stratify most will sprout 2nd growing season.Who wants that???
I think these grow higher in the slopes/mountains and this dormany essential to survival so maybe snow melt does not sprout the seed too soon or something.
I also kept the stratification media(orchid spahgnum) a tad wetter than usual.Orchid spahg is good as it has low molding since antibacterial properties.
Thanks for showing the white pine.I cannot wait to get a crop.
I also am experimenting with hinoki seed in a couple weeks!!!!!
 

Forsoothe!

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Into the 1or 2 day soak

Probably 1 day.I use fulvic/kelp to soak the seeds in.Understand its good for dry seed.
I imagine they alll sink overnight.Right away 60% did sink.
These seed can store 10 years..!!! Wow
Also found a JWP that I remember seeing from Bonsai today DAYS😉
I always did enjoy this simple design and look.Relatively young trees too.
Literally cannot find photos like these anymore without really digging!! What the? Only 15 years ago
OnlyView attachment 332513
This style is very reminiscent of Italian Stone Pine in nature.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Curtis,
I am glad you are tackling JWP from seed. I would not "worry" about the references that insist JWP is weaker on its own roots. The Japanese sources are mostly from warmer growing areas, like Tokyo, which is more like Memphis climate wise than Chicago. Warm, and warm at night I think is what weakens JWP. Trees from mountainous areas like more than 10 C or 18 F temperature differential between daytime high and nighttime lows. Coastal areas of Japan don't get the temperature changes. Hence, weaker growth out of JWP at low elevation. Seedlings likely are not as sensitive to this need for a temperature differential. But if your seedlings stall on you, consider the day-night temperature change and consider methods to increase it if your seedlings "stall out" on their growth rate.

For comments from USA publications, JWP are noted as being less tolerant of wet soils in winter. This is especially true back in the days of sand and loam bonsai mixes. The modern substrates, especially pumice based substrates have near perfect drainage. I believe in modern substrates JWP does considerably better. You should not have significant trouble.

I had read somewhere that seed of most 5 needle pines only stores well for 18 months. After 18 months the germination rate falls quickly to below 50%. It was JBP, JRP, banksiana, and other 2 needle pines that the seed lasted at a high germination rate for 10 years of cold storage. But I just looked, and I can't find my source, so I might be mistaken. Fresh seed is always better.

As for native pines. The long needles of Ponderosa are a pain to deal with. The only reason Ponderosa is popular for bonsai is the relatively abundant and relatively cheap old collected yamadori. (hundreds of $, not thousands of $, for 100 year old Ponderosa). I would not bother raising Ponderosa from seed. They take too long to bark up. Just buy a collected one from Andy Smith at Golden Arrow.

Shorter needle 5 needle pine, look at Pinus lambertiana, the sugar pine. It has fairly short needles. Much shorter than Limber pine. Might be one worth propagating. Other 5 needle pines worth experimenting with are Pinus strobiformis, and Pinus flexilis. I think Pinus monticola and the various Mexican white pines have needles that are just too long, as bonsai they are more trouble, much like Pinus strobus.

Pinus banksiana - jack pine - would be a good pine for your northern customers. This is a super cold tolerant pine, hardy into zone 3. It probably won't do well in warmer areas, zone 3 to zone 6b or 7a may be its range. Definitely not a zone 8 tree. Jack pine has relatively short needles. Makes decent bonsai.

Pinus rigida - pitch pine - that is another that already has somewhat of a track record for bonsai.

Just my thoughts, I'm looking forward to seeing how the JWP seedlings do.
 
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Being much further north, but on the east coast I feel compelled to give a heads up. I have lost a good dozen wp to needle cast that’s so aggressive I have yet to establish a preventative treatment plan. I am beginning to think due to the fact I need to treat year round. I would suggest you look around the area at your native wp and look for signs of heavy needle cast. 👇A6E89F3E-250A-4A38-B197-3F911BE0224D.jpeg
If you think it’s prevalent as seen here I suggest you start a good 40-60 seedlings and look for resistance in year 2. Keep the 1-2 that look the best and chuck the rest on your next walk if they are showing signs. That way you will be starting with a tree that won’t die on you 15 years down the road.
I have yet to keep a wp alive due to these trees showering needle cast and rust into my yard year round.

I was able to do the above method with Sierra mountain sequoia and have success. I started with 22/50 successful cold stratified seedlings and lost 21 of them over the course of 2 years. There was one that never had a single brown needle and I have kept that alive just about 4 years and 6 months.9FC06B34-689C-4BF4-AC21-4ACAB9EB7E9D.jpeg
Right nearby I am still loosing JWP E3BB8E88-B12E-4AE1-B862-4B0616022DDC.jpeg
0B8F2F11-4401-4105-9F87-D30981DBBE43.jpeg
My JBP look fine and respond well to neem, my spruce need Cleary’s but nothing seems to stop the death of any JWP. I haven’t gotten seeds like you though at least not for JWP. 3038D6C2-E77D-4668-9109-136182A1A8CD.jpeg
Just a heads up so you have the best chance at success.
 

cmeg1

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Being much further north, but on the east coast I feel compelled to give a heads up. I have lost a good dozen wp to needle cast that’s so aggressive I have yet to establish a preventative treatment plan. I am beginning to think due to the fact I need to treat year round. I would suggest you look around the area at your native wp and look for signs of heavy needle cast. 👇View attachment 332842
If you think it’s prevalent as seen here I suggest you start a good 40-60 seedlings and look for resistance in year 2. Keep the 1-2 that look the best and chuck the rest on your next walk if they are showing signs. That way you will be starting with a tree that won’t die on you 15 years down the road.
I have yet to keep a wp alive due to these trees showering needle cast and rust into my yard year round.

I was able to do the above method with Sierra mountain sequoia and have success. I started with 22/50 successful cold stratified seedlings and lost 21 of them over the course of 2 years. There was one that never had a single brown needle and I have kept that alive just about 4 years and 6 months.View attachment 332843
Right nearby I am still loosing JWP View attachment 332845
View attachment 332844
My JBP look fine and respond well to neem, my spruce need Cleary’s but nothing seems to stop the death of any JWP. I haven’t gotten seeds like you though at least not for JWP. View attachment 332846
Just a heads up so you have the best chance at success.
Oh wow...too bad.
No white pines anywhere around me...Atlas ceder and Norway Spruce.I believe I read that tou want to be around Norway Spruce to avoid masses of needlecast........Fortunately most of the growing is in my hydroponic room......for experimentation I am not treating the JBP I put outside for a couple mnths a season..........seeing firsthand if Dutch Methods of increased calcium and super brix have any natural efficacy to deter needlecast.....I look daily at the needles.Also add yucca for a natural barrier coating when I do topwater.......Have to sacrifice this one for science!
The needles do have a particularly shiny gleen to them from all the calcium pectate in the leaves.Again this is Dutch science.Extremely effective against greymolds and such...not sure about needlecast...have find out.
The deciduous trees definately is very noticable this Amino acid(dutch natural fungicide) mega calcium.
They almost look synthetic and will easily deter any mold or fungus quite easily...tou realize this when tou touch the leaf.......the pine neesles have it too,can see the tell tale shine of very high brix going on.I still need to purchase a brixometer....I am very interested in natural approuches.....
Not that I will not put some cleary’s or similiar granules if need be.

ok sorry back to topic..............another thread
E165888F-34FD-440B-B798-75206389DF16.jpeg
 

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cmeg1

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Curtis,
I am glad you are tackling JWP from seed. I would not "worry" about the references that insist JWP is weaker on its own roots. The Japanese sources are mostly from warmer growing areas, like Tokyo, which is more like Memphis climate wise than Chicago. Warm, and warm at night I think is what weakens JWP. Trees from mountainous areas like more than 10 C or 18 F temperature differential between daytime high and nighttime lows. Coastal areas of Japan don't get the temperature changes. Hence, weaker growth out of JWP at low elevation. Seedlings likely are not as sensitive to this need for a temperature differential. But if your seedlings stall on you, consider the day-night temperature change and consider methods to increase it if your seedlings "stall out" on their growth rate.

For comments from USA publications, JWP are noted as being less tolerant of wet soils in winter. This is especially true back in the days of sand and loam bonsai mixes. The modern substrates, especially pumice based substrates have near perfect drainage. I believe in modern substrates JWP does considerably better. You should not have significant trouble.

I had read somewhere that seed of most 5 needle pines only stores well for 18 months. After 18 months the germination rate falls quickly to below 50%. It was JBP, JRP, banksiana, and other 2 needle pines that the seed lasted at a high germination rate for 10 years of cold storage. But I just looked, and I can't find my source, so I might be mistaken. Fresh seed is always better.

As for native pines. The long needles of Ponderosa are a pain to deal with. The only reason Ponderosa is popular for bonsai is the relatively abundant and relatively cheap old collected yamadori. (hundreds of $, not thousands of $, for 100 year old Ponderosa). I would not bother raising Ponderosa from seed. They take too long to bark up. Just buy a collected one from Andy Smith at Golden Arrow.

Shorter needle 5 needle pine, look at Pinus lambertiana, the sugar pine. It has fairly short needles. Much shorter than Limber pine. Might be one worth propagating. Other 5 needle pines worth experimenting with are Pinus strobiformis, and Pinus flexilis. I think Pinus monticola and the various Mexican white pines have needles that are just too long, as bonsai they are more trouble, much like Pinus strobus.

Pinus banksiana - jack pine - would be a good pine for your northern customers. This is a super cold tolerant pine, hardy into zone 3. It probably won't do well in warmer areas, zone 3 to zone 6b or 7a may be its range. Definitely not a zone 8 tree. Jack pine has relatively short needles. Makes decent bonsai.

Pinus rigida - pitch pine - that is another that already has somewhat of a track record for bonsai.

Just my thoughts, I'm looking forward to seeing how the JWP seedlings do.
Thanks for this info.I really was not into ponderosa.
Really not interested in the big yamadori’s either.
I will have ro take a look at other pines that you mentioned.I have a hunch I will probably end up growing the classic type Japanese species like cryptomeria( which are incredibly slow) maybe hinoki too or others.....
You never know maybe juniper or something.The evergreens do awesome in the tents.Need to compile a list here soon of species such as this.
 

win320

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Hi @cmeg1
Good afternoon, any success with JWP, mine are still in cold stratification (after 2 months of warm stratification).
Although 1 popped up within 1 week of warm stratification.

seed source was FW Schumacher
 
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I seem to be getting some success with very fresh seed this year. Collected a few ripe cones in October and after soaking the seeds in plain water put them into a jar with horticultural sand for a warm strat. Didn’t expect much and certainly not until they had been through a warm and cold strat but by the first week in December I had some seeds germinating. They continued to do so for3 weeks and as no more had germinated I put them in the fridge to cold strat. Noticed this morning more seeds are shooting while the first batch have shed their seeds and are doing well.
 

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Adair M

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Good luck with your JWP seedlings. The primary reason so many JWP are grafted is to get the superior foliage. JWP seedlings often have unattractive foliage, with long or twisty or loosely tufted needles. So, plant many more than you think you will want, and cull after you see the foliage.
 
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Good luck with your JWP seedlings. The primary reason so many JWP are grafted is to get the superior foliage. JWP seedlings often have unattractive foliage, with long or twisty or loosely tufted needles. So, plant many more than you think you will want, and cull after you see the foliage.
I hadn’t realised the grafting was to do with superior foliage. I had always thought it was a root strength issue. Well I shall have to hope more germinate and I get some with good foliage. Thanks for the advice.
 

JeffS73

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If nothing else, you have a source and method for germinable JWP in the UK, which I certainly think is fantastic! Fresh seed is v hard to source here post brexit. You may get attractive JWP, but if not, you have rootstock for scions with better foliage.

My brief experience (just 2 years of JWP seedlings) is that they produce good nebari naturally - mine are in an open soil and fabric pots. No need to seedling cut.

Well done Sputnik, I will buy JWP seed from you if you have any more, or trade zuisho scions 😀
 
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If nothing else, you have a source and method for germinable JWP in the UK, which I certainly think is fantastic! Fresh seed is v hard to source here post brexit. You may get attractive JWP, but if not, you have rootstock for scions with better foliage.

My brief experience (just 2 years of JWP seedlings) is that they produce good nebari naturally - mine are in an open soil and fabric pots. No need to seedling cut.

Well done Sputnik, I will buy JWP seed from you if you have any more, or trade zuisho scions 😀
I’m sorry I only had a small amount of seed which has all gone into my own stratification for this year. Thank you for your encouraging comments and good luck with your pines.
 

parhamr

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Have to admit,you have me looking through internet pictures of both the native sugggestions.I just could not get a grip on size I could grow starters at.Is there market for growing natives out from seed like we do the JBP?
There’s a very healthy trade and ongoing nursery development effort out in the Pacific Northwest for natives (local and continental), plus many of the classic species. Saplings by the hundred are being put into root control bags and/or planted on washers in colanders.

You might be able to corner a bit of a regional market with local pickups, distribution, and cost effective shipping. I don’t know how it would pencil out compared to the West Coast efforts, but it feels worth a shot.

Native deciduous are really coming into vogue.
 

win320

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If nothing else, you have a source and method for germinable JWP in the UK, which I certainly think is fantastic! Fresh seed is v hard to source here post brexit. You may get attractive JWP, but if not, you have rootstock for scions with better foliage.

My brief experience (just 2 years of JWP seedlings) is that they produce good nebari naturally - mine are in an open soil and fabric pots. No need to seedling cut.

Well done Sputnik, I will buy JWP seed from you if you have any more, or trade zuisho scions 😀
that's great @JeffS73
my experience, so far only 2 and a half seedlings :D (actually 1 may survive with a 50% chance).
could you please share the pics of your JWP ? thanks

I am not having very high hopes with JWP growing as they are super slow but it will be good from a learning perspective, lets see how it goes.
 

cmeg1

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Hi @cmeg1
Good afternoon, any success with JWP, mine are still in cold stratification (after 2 months of warm stratification).
Although 1 popped up within 1 week of warm stratification.

seed source was FW Schumacher
Mine actually grew terrible…….I may give another try in more sterile conditions
 

win320

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that's great @JeffS73
my experience, so far only 2 and a half seedlings :D (actually 1 may survive with a 50% chance).
could you please share the pics of your JWP ? thanks

I am not having very high hopes with JWP growing as they are super slow but it will be good from a learning perspective, lets see how it goes.
thanks @cmeg1 for the update

here is pic of my 2 and half JWP seedling. They are super slow.
next time I will plant seeds directly in root air pruning small pot. I can imagine if I do seedling cutting, it will slow down them forever.

57971A2C-73A3-46FD-A81E-F103BF1E7FCD.jpeg
 

JeffS73

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Well, my tally of 2 JWP from 100 seeds is just as good! Don't rush them, don't seedling cut, wait until frost risk has passed before repotting.
Here are my 2 from 2019:
20220102_113907.jpg
20220102_113818.jpg

About 3 inches tall.. maybe they'll pick up this year?
Roots in Spring this year:
20210309_101740.jpg

So, not that exciting!

Think I've posted these before, JWP grafted onto JBP just above the roots:

Arakawa:
20220102_114055.jpg

Zuisho:
20220102_114004.jpg

They really "blow up" - needles go a lot bluer and longer, they'd be better on a different rootstock I think. So if you've got a source of standard JWP, that should yield nice trees.
 

win320

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thanks, @JeffS73 for posting, they look nice, I will not do the seedling cutting. I will let it grow on its own roots.

I have 2 Zuisho grafted on Scots pine (actually when I purchased, they were already grafted on scots pine, seems they elongate well on scots pine roots).
But the graft is very ugly on my scots pine. Maybe I will plant it in the bag and put it in the ground to gain some growth.
 

win320

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They really "blow up" - needles go a lot bluer and longer, they'd be better on a different rootstock I think. So if you've got a source of standard JWP, that should yield nice trees.
Hi @JeffS73
Do you mean grafting Zuisho on JWP rootstock ? will the growth be faster than normal JWP?
sorry just thought of asking this.
 

JeffS73

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Hi @JeffS73
Do you mean grafting Zuisho on JWP rootstock ? will the growth be faster than normal JWP?
sorry just thought of asking this.
Yes, if you have a reliable supply of JWP that germinate, like Sputnik does, and a JWP cultivar with nice foliage, you can graft the cultivar onto that rootstock. It will be as slow growing but the plant will be as good as "growing on its own roots", at least aesthetically. Might be a 20-30 year wait for it bark up and hide the graft though.
 
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