Japanese white pine short and long needles species

Discussion in 'Pines' started by Driver170, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. Driver170

    Driver170 Shohin

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    Hi guys i am watching Ryan Neil's Mirai videos. I've signed up to his website and hes superb! I'm watching the one where he explains the approach to pinching and he talks about JWP being a long needle single flush pine!?

    And then he mentions other pine species being single flush short needle pine!

    I'm very confused can anyone make sense of this?
     
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  3. M. Frary

    M. Frary Bonsai Godzilla

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    I haven't watched any videos from there but I assume the other single flush pines he is referring to are pines such as scots,mugo,jack and others like those.
     
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  4. Driver170

    Driver170 Shohin

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    Yeh thats correct but he says you get long needle and short needle JWP. Never heard of that before
     
  5. M. Frary

    M. Frary Bonsai Godzilla

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    Don't know then.
    I don't have japanese white pines.
    They're expensive and I'm not sure one would survive here anyways.
    And the single flush trees that I mentioned and have are much better for bonsai in my opinion.
    They back bud real well and cold is their friend.
     
  6. Driver170

    Driver170 Shohin

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    No problem dude. I live in the UK Scotland so suppose the weather changes are good for the pines.

    If you cut back a branch on a pine will it bud from that point?
     
  7. yamadorithought

    yamadorithought Seed

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    I have watched Ryan's posts and o believe you have JWP and Eastern White Pine confused. Even the longest needle cultivars of JWP would still be considered and short needle single flush pine. Eastern White Pine on the other hand would be lumped into same category as other native long needle single flush pines i.e. jack, Scots, limber, etc
     
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  8. yamadorithought

    yamadorithought Seed

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    Sorry for errors in grammar. Didn't proof before replying. First ever post p.s.
     
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  9. Driver170

    Driver170 Shohin

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    Thanks for that and no need to apologise!

    Ryan mentions let the branch elongate and then prune it back to your desired length and at that cut sight you will get buds? I thought if you cut back a candle you will kill the branch?
     
  10. Vance Wood

    Vance Wood Lord Mugo

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    I am not sure you are understanding him correctly. Most Pines can be cut back hard as long as you cut back to some active growth, if you cut back to bare wood you will probably kill that branch. Exception would be a Scots Pine which MIGHT toss a bud or two under those circumstances.
     
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  11. Driver170

    Driver170 Shohin

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    You say active growth is that buds? Because with a single flush pine if you decandle you will kill that branch effectively
     
  12. M. Frary

    M. Frary Bonsai Godzilla

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    Decandle is a misnomer. You don't cut the candles off.
    What you do to pines is cut the new growth shoots back.
    With some single flush trees on good health you can cut it off back into last year's growth with no ill effects. It actually spurs back budding on old wood.
    If you cut back beyond growing needles you have effectively killed that branch.
     
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  13. Driver170

    Driver170 Shohin

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    So you pinch the growing candles leaving some of the new growth.

    So single flush pine you can cut past the current years growth (candle) back to last years growth? I never knew that. Have you got an article I can't find anything relating to that.
     
  14. petegreg

    petegreg Omono

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    I haven't seen the video, but JWP has a few dwarf cultivars (not species). Ryan could have been talking about them, maybe. The most common are Zuisho and Kokonoe. For more try to find the list on evergreengardeworks web page or so...
    https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pinus.htm
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  15. Vance Wood

    Vance Wood Lord Mugo

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    You can cut the new candle growth when it has developed into shoots with needles fully opened all the way back to where it started in the spring plus about 1mm of new growth. This will cause back budding all up and down the old growth especially where there were needles left on the branch.
     
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  16. Driver170

    Driver170 Shohin

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    Thanks alot guys.

    Just when Ryan was pinching candles on a JWP he accidentally broke off all the new candle and he said all that branch is effectively dead now
     
  17. Adair M

    Adair M Imperial Masterpiece

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    Ok, guys, here's the deal. You CAN decandle JWP. But, it's risky. They might or might not send out new second growth shoots (candles). Therefore, since it's not reliable, it's not recommended.

    The usual approach is to pinch back the strong candles to match the others around it. If there are more than two new shoots (candles), reduce down to two. The time to go this is just before the candle has started making needles. When it's done then, it will develop regular buds on the terminal for the following year.

    Actually, during the winter, you can inspect the tips and see how many dormant buds there are. You can eliminate extra buds at that time.

    JWP will backbud, but, they're not reliable. They can also bud where ever there is a needle bundle, but again, they're not reliable. Therefore, take pains to preserve as many branches and twigs as possible, especially interior ones. That said, we still don't want bar branches or places where 3 branches come off one point.

    Now, if you're feeling that JWP are rather difficult, you're right! I don't recommend them for the beginner. They're fussy, and extremely slow growing, and their bark stays immature for 20 to 25 years before it starts to get rough. Their immature bark shows wire scars until it starts to get rough. Yeah, that's 20 to 25 years.

    Other Pines, such as Scots or JBP are much more forgiving to the beginner. JBP have a completely different growth pattern than JWP. Scots, however, are very similiar.
     
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  18. Driver170

    Driver170 Shohin

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    Absolutely fantastic run down! I'm now considering JBP or maybe a scots pine thats native to me. This JWP starter tree i have is just decades away i'll be 50 year old lol

    So maybe its best to get a JBP or a scots
     
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  19. Adair M

    Adair M Imperial Masterpiece

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    Seeing that you live in Edinburgh, I think you should choose a Scots Pine. JBP prefer warmer climates.
     
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  20. dirk hoorelbeke

    dirk hoorelbeke Chumono

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    I would advise scots or scotch too. Ryan Neil has a few specific "pine lectures" view them a few times and you will get the difference and the concept and timing.


    There are several others online, recommended!!
     
  21. BeebsBonsai

    BeebsBonsai Shohin

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    I am currently re-watching the stream you are discussing in your post. Here is what Ryan was saying and why you may have gotten confused. I can totally see the confusion when listening, but this is why he references them as both short and long needle pines:

    Zuisho White Pine- This is a cultivar of Japanese White Pine. It is actually a genetic mutation. This is the short needle JWP he is talking about. Specifically, and only this cultivar of JWP. For this cultivar you can pinch without needle length extending.

    Japanese White Pines- The rest of the JWP cultivars are long-needle species. Only the Zuisho is short needle. If you have a JWP, you let the candles harden, then prune back to the desired candle length, always leaving some new growth.

    That is the run-down of what he said in the episode. Listen again after reading this, and you will get the difference in his discussion immediately.

    Beebs
     
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