Japanese White Pine with Rotten Graft

[AndyJ]

Hi folks,

My wife bought me a present yesterday - a Japanese White Pine - but it's growing from a fairly awful graft! It's only a young tree and will need a bit of growing time but I wonder if anyone has any tips for dealing with bad grafts?

Also, I saw a YouTube video where the guy said something about putting wire on the pine's trunk really tight so that it bites in to the bark, the idea being it will make the trunk swell? Does this work? Any tips for applying this technique?

Finally, the soil the tree is in very peaty; the tree has lots of new growth on the top so appears to be very healthy. Should I just leave it as it for the rest of this year? (The compost is draining pretty well.) Or slip pot it into something that's got some akadama / pumice / lava in it?

Many thanks,

Andy

 

[Wilson]

I would leave it be this year, but others might recommend a summer repot. This strikes me as a tree that needs to grow hard for some years.

 

[Adair M]

Actually, that’s a pretty good graft! It’s low down on top of the roots.

The issue is, the JBP stock will always fatten faster than the JWP scion, so the size difference will always be there, and will get worse over time. Really noting can be done, you have to plan for it.

Do wire the trunk, but not to put in scarring, that’s very ugly. Use heavy copper wire to put in some curves and movement into the young trunk. Remove the wire every 6 months or so and replace it, being careful not to place the new wire in the exact dame place as the old wire.

Don’t heavily feed it to force it to “grow hard”. That will only make the difference of the JBP and JWP worse, and make the graft union look worse! (It’s a common mistake!)

The thing about JWP is while their foliage is beautiful, they grow and develop rather slowly. That’s why the good ones are so expensive. For example, it takes 20 years before the trunk will even BEGIN to get flakey. The smooth juvenile bark splits and cracks and starts to peel itself off. After 20 years. And then it takes about a decade fo that process to occur all the way up the trunk. And only then does it begin to make “plated bark”. Again, I said “begin”. The flakey bark peels and drops off, and the first plates of bark begin to appear. It takes another decade to become completely plated.

So, if you put wire scars on that smooth juvenile trunk, they’re likely to persist 40+ years before they disappear!

Do wire it and bend it while it’s young and flexible. Just watch for wire scars.

 

[AndyJ]

Brilliant reply Adair - thank you! I'm beginning to think I made a mistake ... as in not getting into bonsai until my fifties! I don't think I'll be alive at 90 to see this "arrive"!

Nice to know I was wrong about the graft. Should I put the wire straight on to the trunk or wrap in raffia first? I wondered about creating one of those sythe type trees? The ones where the trunk is shaped like a letter "C" - do you know what I mean? And do I just leave it in the same pot for the rest of this year? Or slip pot? I kind of think that it's main growing is done for this year now isn't it? I think there will be some root growth but as I'll want to improve the substrate next year, I'll be replacing all of the soil next spring anyway. I think I've just answered my own question .....

Thanks again,

Andy

 

[Adair M]

To be successful in doing bonsai, you have to learn technique, timing, and patience. All three are equally important.

Technique: bonsai has zillions of techniques: wiring, pruning, pinching (or not!), potting, heavy bending, collecting, propagating... I could go on... and each species requires mastery of several different techniques to achieve great results. And each species may require different techniques than others. But doing the proper technique at the wrong time of year, or wrong stage of development of the tree can spell disaster. Likewise, applying the proper technique at the right time but not having the patience to let the tree respond to what you’ve done can also doom the tree.

Timing: trees grow in annual cycles, and they have different needs and abilities at different times of the year. Knowing when to do something is as important as knowing how to do it.

Patience: most trees measure time in decades. Not minutes and hours like we do. Trees are in no hurry. Sure, we do what we can to speed the process along, but there’s only so much we can do. A tree’s only response is to grow. We do something, and the tree responds by growing. Maybe it grows in ways we like. Maybe it doesn’t. We can’t fully predict or force the tree. We have to wait. Let the tree respond. And then, apply the next technique. At the proper time. Maybe this means I have to wait 9 months to repot a newly acquired tree. Patuence. Maybe I have to wait a decade for my JWP smooth bark to begin to break up and become flaky. Patience.

You have to apply the proper technique, st the right time, and have the patience to let the technique work in order to be successful in bonsai.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Adair

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I second Adair's comments. One note of caution. It looks like your tree is 3 or 4 years post grafting. Graft unions do not heal completely in one or two years. It takes between 5 and 10 years before a graft union is completely healed. Until then, do not try to bend the trunk across the graft union. Safest is to never wire across the graft union, but if you are just anchoring a wire, as long as no tension is applied to the graft, you will be okay.

Second, if your wife got this tree from a bonsai orientated nursery you can assume it is Japanese Black Pine as the understock. However if it came from a more commercial landscape orientated nursery, it might be Pinus sylvestris or Pinus nigra that is the understock. Generally the difference between the different understock is moot. Some texture differences in the bark that will develop on the lowest section of trunk. In North America it makes a bigger difference because JBP is not winter hardy in the northern tier of States, and in large parts of Canada. I think JBP is fully winter hardy through England, and probably the whole of the UK. In Cunbria it probably doesn't matter.

I too feel that is a good graft, and should just about disappear except for the texture differences in bark texture. As I said before you won't know just how good a graft is until about the 10 year mark when it should be fully healed.

 

[DirkvanDreven]

To be successful in doing bonsai, you have to learn technique, timing, and patience. All three are equally important.

Technique: bonsai has zillions of techniques: wiring, pruning, pinching (or not!), potting, heavy bending, collecting, propagating... I could go on... and each species requires mastery of several different techniques to achieve great results. And each species may require different techniques than others. But doing the proper technique at the wrong time of year, or wrong stage of development of the tree can spell disaster. Likewise, applying the proper technique at the right time but not having the patience to let the tree respond to what you’ve done can also doom the tree.

Timing: trees grow in annual cycles, and they have different needs and abilities at different times of the year. Knowing when to do something is as important as knowing how to do it.

Patience: most trees measure time in decades. Not minutes and hours like we do. Trees are in no hurry. Sure, we do what we can to speed the process along, but there’s only so much we can do. A tree’s only response is to grow. We do something, and the tree responds by growing. Maybe it grows in ways we like. Maybe it doesn’t. We can’t fully predict or force the tree. We have to wait. Let the tree respond. And then, apply the next technique. At the proper time. Maybe this means I have to wait 9 months to repot a newly acquired tree. Patuence. Maybe I have to wait a decade for my JWP smooth bark to begin to break up and become flaky. Patience.

You have to apply the proper technique, st the right time, and have the patience to let the technique work in order to be successful in bonsai.

Adair,
Maybe this is by far the most important lesson in Bonsai!
Need to know not much more!

 

[AndyJ]

OK, now I'm really cheesed off. I got some 3-4mm copper wire and wound it round the tree and up to the top. I didn't think that one coil was enough, so I doubled up in the bottom half of the trunk and put in a bend - and then "crack!" About 2" above the graft, the trunk snapped - it's not gone all the way through, just about half way. I bent the trunk back up slightly to close the gap and then got some sealing putty and smothered it all over the wound. I've kept a close eye on the tree since - it's about a week now - and all needles appear turgid and ok. So now my tree has got some movement in it, but not as much as I wanted - or in the places I wanted it.

What is the best course of action now? Part of me thought that in repairing the damage I've created it might add something interesting to the tree. Can I carry on bending the top of the tree? I was thinking about taking the wire I have put on off, then laying two long, straight wires up either side of the trunk, and tying them in with raffia from bottom to top. Then reapplying my two coils of wire, and starting the bending process again. Or should I just leave it alone for the rest of this year now?

I'm not sure what I did wrong with this tree. I mean, the bend I attempted was fairly shallow - I've bent other pines more than this without a problem so am a bit confused .....

Thanks all,

Andy

 

[Shibui]

Some species are more brittle than others but I thought white pine was reasonably flexible. Maybe just unlucky. Letting trees dry out a touch before wiring appears to make them more flexible. With most species you can add extra bend after the tree starts to relax a week or so after initial bends.
An incomplete break will usually heal up wit the treatment you have given but will often swell up a bit in the process. How bad and whether you can design around it remains to be seen.
You should still be able to bend the rest of the tree but do not move the broken area any more, including unintended movement while bending upper parts. How controlled do you feel? Also remember this tree appears to be brittle so bear that in mind when making further bends. I have been known to cause further breaks, even after thinking take more care
Taking the wires off now is probably not a good idea. That may be all that's holding the cracked area together at the moment.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Shibul - pretty much what I thought but always good to get another opinion!

 

[Adair M]

Thanks Shibul - pretty much what I thought but always good to get another opinion!

Andy, can you post a picture of the wired tree?

There are some things a picture might show that could help you learn what you did wrong.

For instance, when you bend a wired trunk or branch, you want to have the wire on the outside of the curve as you’re bending. That extra support helps to keep from snapping the wood. If the wire is on the inside of the curve, it’s easier to snap it.

Stuff like that.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Adair. Pictures attached - I hope these picture show what I have done clearly enough. I've included some closer in showing the graft a little clearer.

 

[Adair M]

Yeah, that wire is woefully inadequate, as in being too thin. You need to use wire about 1/4 as thick as the trunk. And if I’m guessing where the break occurred correctly, it is where the outside of the bend was not protected by the wire. The wire was on the inside of the bend.

Doubling up thin wire is not as strong as using a single strand of thicker wire.

 

[AndyJ]

Ok, thanks Adair. What should I do from here? Add more wire and bend again? Or just leave it for this year now and have a look next spring to see if it has (a) survived the winter and (b) see if I can try bending it again

 

[ysrgrathe]

One bend for every 1.5 turns of wire, outside of bend should always be supported by wire. You also have too shallow an angle which isn't giving you enough turns to really add bends. (If Adair disagrees with anything I just said, please listen to him!)

 

[Adair M]

I’d leave it alone for now

 

[AndyJ]

Hey folks!

I took the wire off of this JWP and it's held the shape I put in it last year. The break is still visible but I'm hoping it will be OK as time goes by. It's growing strong with lots of new growth so am guessing there is enough of the trunk structure connected and is passing water and nutrients up and down the tree.

I've been wanting to pinch the new growth on my JWP but have been waiting to see the brown sheaths appear on the soil surface before doing so. Is this right? What is the correct procedure for pinching JWP? Do I decandle like JBP and remove all of this years growth? Or is it like Scots pine where I pinch back and leave a few of this year's needles?

Thanks all

 

[sorce]

The actions are essentially the same, it's the reaction that is different.

Timing and amount cut off is aesthetic more than horticultural.

Sorce

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Sorce. So to confirm, now is ok to do this?