japanese white pines

[Dave E]

found some jwp seedlings at a low price. 8"-12".
are they a good starting tree?maturing time?do they require the tlc that only a well seasoned vet can give?

any advice appreciated

thanks

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

jwp is not the best option for beginners. If you keep it happy, you don't have a bonsai yet.

 

[Nybonsai12]

White pines are not typically the first choice to go to for beginners, not necessarily due to difficulty but because quality JWP are expensive and because they are a slow growing species. A seedling will take many years to grow before being ready for styling into a bonsai. Pines in general aren't usually recommended to first timers. That doesn't mean you can't get one though! Japanese Black Pine are often the first choice of pine for starters.

For a beginner i'd say to get either a maple(japanese or trident) and/or a juniper preferably the shimpaku variety. You are in CT, check out Mark Comstock on Facebook. he is somewhat local to you and offers good stock at decent pricing. Read as much as you can here on Bonsai Nut, ask questions and enjoy the journey.

 

[Dave E]

thanks for the advice i'll check out Mark on fb

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I say - pick up the JWP seedlings now, we are not getting any younger.

8 to 12 inch seedlings will need at least 5 years of growing before you will be able to call them pre-bonsai. Mostly just let them grow, no pruning or training. During the 5 year plus grow out period, pick up an elm, a maple, maybe a flowering quince, and a larch. Learn what you can, and by the time these JWP seedlings are old enough to work on, you will be ready and knowledgeable.

 

[Adair M]

Leo, I would generally agree... Except to say that he ought to wire the trunks to put some movement in while they're young rather than have 5 year old seedlings with straight trunks.

Which speaks to:

The problem for beginners starting out with young seedlings! The trees need training from the very beginning of their lives to have character when they're older. But the beginner doesn't know what to do when the trees are young, he has no experience with styling trees yet. So he doesn't know which branches to keep, which to let run as sacrifices, how to keep "keeper" branches, etc.

Now, if the beginner had an experienced mentor or teacher to show him how and what to do, that's another matter.

Unfortunately, most of us bumble around for several years trying to do this bonsai thing on our own.

 

[Dave E]

yes i would've at least shaped the trunk.
i do have my feet wet.about 8 years ago or so i got into bonsai for a couple years.i read some library books and i had a red maple that i chopped the trunk and trained the branches that budded,a japanese maple, a jb pine that i instantly killed and a blue spruce as well as a few others .

i still consider myself a newbie though and what has resparked my interest is my 14 yo sons new interest in the hobby.

i/we would love to find a mentor,and i'm sure we will learn alot on this forum.

thanks for all the advice

 

[JoeR]

I also want a white pine, but they are hard to find. The only one I found that seemed nice for the money was in the UK, Allthingsbonsai. This is one of their JWP, which looks like they let the wire absorb into the trunk to thicken it faster so it's likely younger than it appears. How long would you estimate it to take to get here from seed?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

10 years if you can get seedlings going strong. Most (like your photo) are grafted, and will fatten a little quicker.
This Zuisho was grafted in 2004, so it's 11 years old now and has a 2" trunk at the graft.

 

[Adair M]

Brian, from what I've been told about Zuisho, at about 10 years old is when they start to build trunk.

 

[JoeR]

10 years if you can get seedlings going strong. Most (like your photo) are grafted, and will fatten a little quicker.
This Zuisho was grafted in 2004, so it's 11 years old now and has a 2" trunk at the graft.

Ha just got done reading your blog post on that one.

10 years! No wonder they are so hard to find. I do think you're over estimating the size of the one I posted though. Just based on the proportions of the needles and pot I'd guess its about 1.5", and the only reason it's that size is like you said grafting and the twists in the lower trunk. This one has more mature bark than yours, is that just the rootstock or is it really just older?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian, from what I've been told about Zuisho, at about 10 years old is when they start to build trunk.

I've read that in several places too. Old BT issues for sure, but sometimes I get the feeling a few of those old articles do a bait-and-switch...year 1 it's a chopstick, year 2 it's a sharpie, year three it's a 4" trunk, with branches in different places!

I don't expect much for the year or two it's going to spend in a pot while we build the new garden. So long as it stays healthy, but it would be nice to see it start to build a head of steam. I'd like to start making some design decisions in a couple years. Does Boon grow them out in oversized bonsai pots?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I do think you're over estimating the size of the one I posted though. Just based on the proportions of the needles and pot I'd guess its about 1.5", and the only reason it's that size is like you said grafting and the twists in the lower trunk. This one has more mature bark than yours, is that just the rootstock or is it really just older?

No, that's about the size I estimated. And it's grafted high; the more mature bark you see halfway up the trunk is Japanese black pine, which barks up in about 8-10 years. White pine bark takes 2-3 times longer to get flaky. Mine is a low graft; just at the soil line...where it should be.

 

[Adair M]

Brian, Boon grew mine in a slightly larger and deeper bonsai pot. Several of his students use colander a or pond baskets. Some tried the "double colander" and later wished they hadn't. Singles work just fine.

You might want to try "potting it deep", and see if it will throw out roots off the Zuisho. Boon tells me that every Zuisho and Kokonoe graft on JBP stock is doomed. The growth rate differences of the two pines eventually cause the graft Union to fail. But, both Zuisho and Kokonoe will ground layer. Then, you can eventually remove the JBP roots entirely.

He also says that most all the Zuisho have grafted on branches.

One good characteristic that Zuisho has over Kokonoe is the branches of Zuisho tend to stay slim, whereas the branches of Kokonoe tend to fatten up. Having slim branches makes the trunk look fatter.

The one I have now is the only Zuisho in Boon's garden. And, even then, Boon thought it was a Kokonoe! When Boon bought it in Japan, it was sold to him as a Kokonoe. It was Diasaku Nomoto who identified it as Zuisho when he was working on it last January. They're very similar. (I'm going with Diasaku says, he specializes in JWP).

From the look of yours, with that trunk, it looks like it's going to be a Formal Upright. With that in mind, you might want to start grafting on branches.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Thanks, I have thought about grafting between the too-low first whorl, and the too-high second whorl, but have been also toying with the idea of removing the central trunk entirely, and developing the first left branch as the new leader and getting some low, swift movement. So far the decision seems to keep falling to the bottom of the list of chores, and so it grows!

 

[Dave E]

so it sounds like it will take 5 yrs to have anything bonsai like but more like 8-10 yrs.
is that in the ground or can i achieve that in a pot i'm in an apt and pot is my only choice
not bonsai pots i have a couple i think they're 5 gallon pots (the ones they sell the larger trees in) that i would grow them in

 

[M. Frary]

I would love to own a Japanese White pine but don't because.
1. They are expensive just for nursery trees.
2.I have a sneaking suspicion that they are not cold hardy enough.
3. A biggie for me. They are usually grafted trees. As stated grafts fail. The worst part is they are grafted onto Japanese Black pine rootstock. Probably the thing that gives me the feeling they aren't cold hardy enough.
Maybe if I ever find one on its roots,of appropriate trunk size and I don't have to do a bank job to afford it I will get one.
But with that criteria it will be like finding a diamond in a goats ass. Few and far between. Too bad too. They are beautiful trees.

 

[Adair M]

Brian,

I know what you're seeing, a lack of taper. I think you will get some natural taper if you cut back on the long branches up top, and continue to let the lower ones grow. And graft on more.

I've copied in a pic of my Zuisho. See, the main tree on mine doesn't have much taper, either.

If you chop the trunk, that's a decade of growth gone. For what? An inch or two of trunk? Not worth it in my opinion. And I LIKE sumo style and fast taper.

I think the best approach for your tree is to graft on a lot of new branches on the trunk. Pick a couple of the existing ones to let run as sacrifices, keep the majority of the branches. Even if they are at the same level.

Look again at the branches on my tree. Most are really slender. When kept slender, they don't produce reverse taper. Even at a whorl. Wiring them down reduces the "T" bar branch look. The more branches, the better. Builds taper naturally.

 

[Adair M]

Just a thought:

If you do decide to chop the trunk, air layer it off. Zuisho airlayers well.