JBP advice needed

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I have about 200 jbp seedlings (1 year old) some seedling cuttings some not, mostly weak but early days.

I have a thread about a bigger jbp I bought but it was neglected and very leggy so after the purchase I found out it was no good, planning on using this one for practice when it gets a bit stronger.

seen this one today and looking for advice if its in a good stage to work on, not too leggy etc before I purchase.

Its not exactly cheap but its a good few years ahead of where my seedlings will be any time soon! and I'm hoping to build an understanding of refinement whilst building a more developed JBP in the process.20230419_193839.jpg
Apologies for image quality had problems with screenshot so had to take a photo
 

namnhi

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I have about 200 jbp seedlings (1 year old) some seedling cuttings some not, mostly weak but early days.

I have a thread about a bigger jbp I bought but it was neglected and very leggy so after the purchase I found out it was no good, planning on using this one for practice when it gets a bit stronger.

seen this one today and looking for advice if its in a good stage to work on, not too leggy etc before I purchase.

Its not exactly cheap but its a good few years ahead of where my seedlings will be any time soon! and I'm hoping to build an understanding of refinement whilst building a more developed JBP in the process.View attachment 483399
Apologies for image quality had problems with screenshot so had to take a photo
This one looks quite leggy as well. How much are they asking for it?
 

LuZiKui

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It looks to have quite a few options on it for a new design, although it is a bit leggy, if you are comfortable with the price it seems to be a healthy plant to work on.

@Smoke Has got some great info on pines on his website. This tree reminded me of his blog and how he goes about designing and planning for the future of a tree. If you end up getting this I'd highly recommend studying his stuff.

 
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This one looks quite leggy as well. How much are they asking for it?
Its 200 gbp but saying reduced from 300 which made me suspicious its past working.
It looks to have quite a few options on it for a new design, although it is a bit leggy, if you are comfortable with the price it seems to be a healthy plant to work on.

@Smoke Has got some great info on pines on his website. This tree reminded me of his blog and how he goes about designing and planning for the future of a tree. If you end up getting this I'd highly recommend studying his stuff.

Thank you for the info had a quick look now and will likely follow this step by step if I do get the tree, quite shocked how much he removes from the tree in the post!
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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200gbp seems a bit high, but I am not familiar with your local market. Does it seem fair to you? The plant is at least 15 years old, but has not had much work done on it. What does landscape nursery stock 15 years old go for in your area? That would be where I'd peg the base, add a little extra for the little bit of work done.

I'm not fond of the coiled looking roots at the base, the first few inches of the tree looks awkward. I would probably pass at any price. But that is my taste from a single photo.
 
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Thank you for the advice, you're right about the bottom of the tree

Also mentally following smoke's stick figure in my mind leaves me with a leggy leader to chop to or an awkward straight section low down

I am now considering some japanese imported trees from the same seller which are ready for actual refinement, there are 2 available so I apologise in advance but please could you help me choose?

Tree 1 is 27-30 cm20230420_090808.jpg20230420_090740.jpg20230420_090845.jpg
 

Shibui

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Always be aware that most of Smoke's trees have been purchased almost complete rather than developed from starter material.
The new trees look good but real hard to see what's behind all those branches.
Definitely better to have too much than long, thin branches but much depends on how much you have to spend and how quick you want the result.
Also the current fixation on size. Shohin (under 25 cm ) will command better prices than Chuhin size material no matter if the latter is technically better.
 

Smoke

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Always be aware that most of Smoke's trees have been purchased almost complete rather than developed from starter material.
The new trees look good but real hard to see what's behind all those branches.
Definitely better to have too much than long, thin branches but much depends on how much you have to spend and how quick you want the result.
Also the current fixation on size. Shohin (under 25 cm ) will command better prices than Chuhin size material no matter if the latter is technically better.
Bonsai has always, and always will be about how fat your wallet is. One mans almost complete, is another mans starter material. You START with what you can afford. Im 68 years old and able to spend more for someone elses time. What I do with it makes no difference on what you start with. The procedures are the same, one just takes more time before its ready for the nail signature pot, antique Japanese stand and the next great venue to show it in.
 
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So, I find myself preferring tree 2 because it appears to have more branches and therefore options, however I have a couple of concerns

Firstly the lower branches particularly look quite a bit longer than those on tree one, could this be a problem or are they still tight enough?Screenshot_20230423-205305_Gallery.jpg

Secondly I noticed a couple of dead needles which may be a bit hard to spot in my pics but was definitely visible as brown in the vendors pics, I have shrugged this off as old needles but would kick myself if I didn't ask for advice from the much wiser members here if it did turn out to be fungal or something else.
Screenshot_20230423-205412_Gallery.jpg
Thank you for your help, this will be the most I have spent on a tree to date so I'm quite nervous!
 

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Leo in N E Illinois

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I think your choice of #2 is fine, the better tree of the two. The brown needles circled seem to be a minor problem likely caused by lack of light penetration. I don't think its anything to worry about, most likely if I saw it in person I would prune the problem area off and not give it another thought. But I am not seeing the tree in person, so its just a guess.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Concur with #2.

First thing to do when getting the tree aboard is do a little needle plucking… yes even now …to increase air circulation and light penetration…. Maybe a little light shoot selection.

Then at the appropriate time for your area, decandle only the strongest branches leaving any weaker ones, if any, alone.

Cheers
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@namnhi @LuZiKui @Leo in N E Illinois @Shibui @Smoke @Deep Sea Diver

bit the bullet and ordered this tree last night, (tree 2 above)
Screenshot_20230423-205305_Gallery.jpg

it is still quarantined until some time in July, I also just realised it is a Cork bark which I have read on here are less vigorous and less keen on decandling etc than standard jbp.

I am reading up what I can whilst I wait for it but wanted to check if this changed any of the advice I received.

I am on a workshop at the end of September and was planning to take it to this to have a pro hold my hand through whatever steps are needed provided its not going to be bad timing?

Should I get straight into feeding it when it arrives or wait a couple weeks?

Does a tree like this take less feeding than developing seedlings?

Been trying to figure out approximate age, any guesses?

Thank you for your time
 

namnhi

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That is a nice tree Sir!
I would definitely take it to your meet to get guidance from a local pro. Looks like you have done your home work on cork bark pine being weaker then the normal type. I didn't own one so I can't give any specific advise... but a pro you going to meet can help with that. As for feeding, I would feed it lightly any other trees.
Please keep us posted when you got the tree.
 

bwaynef

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Peter Warren suggests that JBP aren't vigorous enough to reliably decandle each year in his location. I don't know how that translates to your location, but its something I'd consider. (I think that's one of the reasons he recommends a native pine, Scots I think.)
 

Deep Sea Diver

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CBP are a bit challenging so go slow. I’m sure there are plenty ideas out there.

Here’s my routine.

Wait, learn how the media reacts to watering, inspect the entire tree and media, check for pests, get the tree settled for a couple weeks. Study everything available on this tree. Sift out the garbage and nail down the key points.

Finally start with 1/2 the recommended fertilizer dose. Move up to a normal dose two weeks after the first, given the temperatures are below 32C.

Good luck!
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@namnhi thank you! I will definitely be turning to the nut for plenty of guidance with this one!

@bwaynef yes, I have also read on BVFs blog that cork barks don't produce a second flush even for him, I assume candle cutting will produce buds for next year if carried out but I will likely see how I get on balancing energy through needle pulling.

@Deep Sea Diver thank you, I will follow this, I do quarantine as best I can already but this tree is getting its own stand anyway. Our temps here were around 30 last week which was record breaking and it seems to have cooled now, normally id expect 32 to be well out of reach!

I'm assuming 32c is the summer dormancy temp? so alternatively you would not feed/ increase strength until the tree came into active growth? (Just in case we get another heatwave, better to be prepared)
 

namnhi

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32c is optimal growing temp. We have been in 40c for weeks here and black pine is still growing.
 

JackHammer

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I am jealous of the trees that you have available for that price. Trees like that would be really, really expensive in America. They aren't even show pieces or anything, just stupid expensive regular bonsai.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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32c is optimal growing temp. We have been in 40c for weeks here and black pine is still growing.
Curious. How was this determined visually, or is there data, which would be interesting to see.

25C appears to be generally shown as the optimal temperature of photosynthesis for most conifers (not at altitude) at present.

As shown, JPB (chart for 2 firs) could certainly be growing above 32C, yet it is often considered that the photosynthesis rate for conifers falls off as temperatures exceed 30C fairly steeply. For example:

IMG_1656.jpeg

In any event the fertilizer regime stated is somewhat conservative due to being a newly owned tree.

Imho depending upon the type and amount fertilizer used, and one’s experiences with trees at these temperatures, fertilizing at higher temperatures above 32C is somewhat like walking a tightrope... Risking root damage etc for not a lot of gain.

Anyways just one person’s opinion.

cheers
DSD sends
 
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