JBP candles in development ideas/suggestions

ShimpakuBonsai

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I love to watch the videos of the Yajima-en Youtube channel.
I've seen the ring bark pines in several videos and I've questioned myself why they do it that way.
My guess is it has something to do with stimulating back budding on the lower trunk.
 

Maiden69

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I haven't touched this guys since the last update... but I think it is time, or at least close to unless someone tells me otherwise. @Shibui @Adair M @Brian Van Fleet I think I do need some options as I am pretty sure these trees need some extra thinking.

My first idea was to cut all candles from this year except an apical sacrifice, but that is like 70% of each tree. They are pushing candles from the middle of this year's candles, and also from the end of them.

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Maiden69

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Close up of this years candles. My question here is... since the timing for de-candeling is based upon the maturation of the candle (if done too early can produce juvenile candles), wouldn't it be too late now? Every video I have seen from people decandeling, the candles look like my candles looked at the beginning of May. Not fully open, with a semi-green stem. My candles look not like the ones Mirai cut to length in August to produce budding for next year for ramification.

Because we have such a long growing season, couldn't I decandle earlier? Like May, then prune the candles in July to length and get a third flush? I think this is what Ernie Kuo was doing according to Brent's article on growing JBP. I guess I may try this next year with one of them.

Pruning Between Candles

I haven't done much of this, since I was so strongly influenced by Naka, but apparently Ernie Kuo has done a lot of it and has published an article on it. Many people remove only part of the candle instead of the candle at its base to achieve ramification. They might even remove various fractions of the candles, one half, one third, two thirds, etc. The object here is not necessarily to stimulate new shorter secondary candles from the node, but to use existing candles that would otherwise be too long. By cutting the candle you stimulate the adventitious buds at the base of the new needles near the end of the cut and you will get two or more bud breaks in the same season. Ernie uses this technique to get more than one set of forked branches (ramification) in a single season. I think this technique is probably best suited for warm, long growing season areas.


New growth on end of this year candle
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Even my Thunderhead is behaving the same way. The top one looks like it grew a new candle with new buds on top of it.
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My pine growing set up. I think I need to expand and get a new planter to separate them... first time, so I had no idea they will need that much space with

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Maiden69

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Going to separate them into different posts.

A

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Maiden69

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My Thunderhead

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My kabudachi, its growing strong, but I need to check his nutrition because the needles are rather pale. Maybe too much water?
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Shibui

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I don't think any of these trees are ready for traditional decandling yet. Decandling is made to sound important and special so everyone wants to do it because that's pine bonsai. The reality is development phase is important and development is better using grow and chop which will give growth, thickening, taper and trunk/branch, movement. Decandling will give you ramification, movement and taper but will severely slow growth and thickening so decide where your trees fit before deciding what to do next.

You have some good sacrifice trunks growing. At this stage I would not be focusing there. That section is only to thicken the real trunk below.

I'm finding it really hard to make virts because there's such a mass of branches and needles so it's hard to be clear what's growing where. This is the clearest shot I can get to illustrate my ideas.

jbp 1.png
  • Red lines show where to cut to allow new buds to grow from existing needles. All future trunk and branches will grow from these shoots.
  • Blue lines show to remove shoots with long internodes (bare necks) because those won't back bud from the bare lower area. Note that's different to branches that are bare because older needles have dropped.
  • Green arrow indicates the sacrifice trunk that will be removed altogether at some stage when the trunk is thick enough. During the growing/development phase just remove lower needles and some low side branches from the sacrifice trunk to allow lots of light and no competition with those important lower branches.
Some provisos for the above advice:
The photo does not show the trunk below this area so I can't tell if there's any useful trunk to design with and I can't see where these shoots originate or what bends/angles are below.
Because of the confusion of needles and branches it's hard to pick which have bare necks and which have viable needles. Check in person before making chops.

Lots of photos of lots of different trees doesn't make it any easier to give advice on a forum. I doubt any one of us are going to sit for hours to design each and every tree for you. Better to pick one or 2 and get general advice on what works then apply that to the others as you see fit.

All this is so much easier to explain and show with a tree that one can turn and hold. Any chance you can find a local with some pine experience to give actual hands on help?
 

Maiden69

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I don't think any of these trees are ready for traditional decandling yet. Decandling is made to sound important and special so everyone wants to do it because that's pine bonsai. The reality is development phase is important and development is better using grow and chop which will give growth, thickening, taper and trunk/branch, movement. Decandling will give you ramification, movement and taper but will severely slow growth and thickening so decide where your trees fit before deciding what to do next.

You have some good sacrifice trunks growing. At this stage I would not be focusing there. That section is only to thicken the real trunk below.

I'm finding it really hard to make virts because there's such a mass of branches and needles so it's hard to be clear what's growing where. This is the clearest shot I can get to illustrate my ideas.

View attachment 444628
  • Red lines show where to cut to allow new buds to grow from existing needles. All future trunk and branches will grow from these shoots.
  • Blue lines show to remove shoots with long internodes (bare necks) because those won't back bud from the bare lower area. Note that's different to branches that are bare because older needles have dropped.
  • Green arrow indicates the sacrifice trunk that will be removed altogether at some stage when the trunk is thick enough. During the growing/development phase just remove lower needles and some low side branches from the sacrifice trunk to allow lots of light and no competition with those important lower branches.
Some provisos for the above advice:
The photo does not show the trunk below this area so I can't tell if there's any useful trunk to design with and I can't see where these shoots originate or what bends/angles are below.
Because of the confusion of needles and branches it's hard to pick which have bare necks and which have viable needles. Check in person before making chops.

Lots of photos of lots of different trees doesn't make it any easier to give advice on a forum. I doubt any one of us are going to sit for hours to design each and every tree for you. Better to pick one or 2 and get general advice on what works then apply that to the others as you see fit.

All this is so much easier to explain and show with a tree that one can turn and hold. Any chance you can find a local with some pine experience to give actual hands on help?
Thanks for the feedback. All images in post 26 are from the same tree, same as post 27. The other ones were just added as a FYI to show the condition of all my pines at this moment. Sorry that the pics are not any clear, I haven't remove any needles from the trees to keep my options for back budding open.

Right now I don't have anyone close to me, I am trying to attend the San Antonio Bonsai Club, but at the time and day they get together I have volleyball club with my daughter. Her last game is today before the break till August so I may try to attend next week, my biggest issue is that this 2 pines are in pond baskets that I planted in my grow bed a few weeks now and I they already pushed roots out into the mulch. I did this because I plan on repotting them this spring into Rootpouches.

I was thinking about decandeling mostly the lower portions, but I think your plan on cutting back to healthy needles to get the next development shoots is better. I will see if I can remove this 2 trees depending on the amount of roots growing and take much better pictures.

Do you slow down the growth of the sacrifice branch at all? If you do, do you do that now, I know Mirai and other people advocate on doing developmental pruning of candles around the 1-2 week of August in order to develop buds from the location were you cut. Or cutting to the location you specify now will produce summer shoots the same as decandeling?
 

Maiden69

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@Shibui this is a clearer close-up of that area. There are 2 branches, one about 1/2 above the other one and slightly to the right. IMG_4089.jpg


The trunk below the lower branch.
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Trunk from the opposite side.
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Shibui

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Sorry that the pics are not any clear, I haven't remove any needles from the trees to keep my options for back budding open.
No need for apology. That was not meant to be a criticism, just an observation that it is really difficult to give online advice on styling or pruning pines and junipers because there's always some growth in the way when we take photos.

So that lower branch appears to come out at a good angle to become eventual replacement trunk. Always look at other possible branches as well in case there's other options.

In the new pic we can see that one branch -right, horizontal - has a really long bare section so unlikely to be any use because buds won't grow without needles.
The vertical one has a shorter bare neck so might be possible to use that one depending on what size you plan for the tree and where you'll need branches. Branches will come from the new buds that will grow from the base of needles after pruning.
Left, horizontal branch has plenty of (juvenile) needles right down to close to the base so is idea to prune and get good buds you can use later.
Another branch in the background also has good needles close to the base so is also possible future trunk material. You'll need to check and see which of those look better.

I was thinking about decandeling mostly the lower portions, but I think your plan on cutting back to healthy needles to get the next development shoots is better. I will see if I can remove this 2 trees depending on the amount of roots growing and take much better pictures.
decandling is to maintain short growth on mature trees. It will reduce growth to minimum which is good for established pines but not so good when we want trunk thickness and growth. Grow and prune, usually over a 2-4 year cycle, gives growth while still getting short buds to develop branching with. Grow and prune is the method I prefer for development.

Right now I don't have anyone close to me, I am trying to attend the San Antonio Bonsai Club, but at the time and day they get together I have volleyball club with my daughter. Her last game is today before the break till August so I may try to attend next week, my biggest issue is that this 2 pines are in pond baskets that I planted in my grow bed a few weeks now and I they already pushed roots out into the mulch.
I understand that many of us may not have the opportunity to attend face to face clubs, etc. I spent many years of trial and error learning before I had access to a personal help. It is just so much easier to understand the concept when you are holding a tree and the mentor can point and explain or show.
Family should always come first. The trees will still be waiting when the kids have grown and left. Wish your daughter luck in the next game.

Do you slow down the growth of the sacrifice branch at all? If you do, do you do that now, I know Mirai and other people advocate on doing developmental pruning of candles around the 1-2 week of August in order to develop buds from the location were you cut. Or cutting to the location you specify now will produce summer shoots the same as decandeling?
I can't see why you'd want to slow the sacrifice branches down. They are meant to grow to provide the most boost to thickening. The only reason to slow a sacrifice is when the lower branches become weak in which case I'll chop the sacrifice to allow the important lower parts to recover and grow.
Pruning any branch back will result in new buds just below the cut. Decandling produces a cluster of buds from the node. Pruning to older needles produces similar buds from each needle just below the chop. Stronger branches will usually produce more buds from more needles. Weaker ones may only get a few new buds.
I seem to get similar response to pruning as to decandling depending on time of year.
Pruning in early spring produces strong new buds that grow long and often have long bare necks.
Pruning early summer yields smaller, shorter new shoots with short bare necks.
Pruning later in summer or Autumn new buds may be delayed until the following spring when the shoots will be strong as in spring pruning.

I've found some file photos that may show how shoots grow from needles after hard pruning. Not sure what time of year these were pruned but shoot extension looks like mid spring prune.
First photo shows shoots from needles after pruning to the lowest remaining needles on a branch.
P1180647.JPG

This shows new shoots from a node after pruning back to a previous node - very similar to response after decandling.
P1180648.JPG

This shoot was younger when pruned and probably an upper branch - note lots of new buds emerging from base of needles (one from each) right down the remaining branch.
P1180650.JPG
 

Maiden69

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@Shibui thanks for the detailed explanation. I know you advocate a series of small/medium chops for deciduous trees, do you do the same for pines? If so, how thick would you let a sacrifice trunk get in a JBP before chopping and transitioning to the next one?
 

Srt8madness

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No need for apology. That was not meant to be a criticism, just an observation that it is really difficult to give online advice on styling or pruning pines and junipers because there's always some growth in the way when we take photos.

So that lower branch appears to come out at a good angle to become eventual replacement trunk. Always look at other possible branches as well in case there's other options.

In the new pic we can see that one branch -right, horizontal - has a really long bare section so unlikely to be any use because buds won't grow without needles.
The vertical one has a shorter bare neck so might be possible to use that one depending on what size you plan for the tree and where you'll need branches. Branches will come from the new buds that will grow from the base of needles after pruning.
Left, horizontal branch has plenty of (juvenile) needles right down to close to the base so is idea to prune and get good buds you can use later.
Another branch in the background also has good needles close to the base so is also possible future trunk material. You'll need to check and see which of those look better.


decandling is to maintain short growth on mature trees. It will reduce growth to minimum which is good for established pines but not so good when we want trunk thickness and growth. Grow and prune, usually over a 2-4 year cycle, gives growth while still getting short buds to develop branching with. Grow and prune is the method I prefer for development.


I understand that many of us may not have the opportunity to attend face to face clubs, etc. I spent many years of trial and error learning before I had access to a personal help. It is just so much easier to understand the concept when you are holding a tree and the mentor can point and explain or show.
Family should always come first. The trees will still be waiting when the kids have grown and left. Wish your daughter luck in the next game.


I can't see why you'd want to slow the sacrifice branches down. They are meant to grow to provide the most boost to thickening. The only reason to slow a sacrifice is when the lower branches become weak in which case I'll chop the sacrifice to allow the important lower parts to recover and grow.
Pruning any branch back will result in new buds just below the cut. Decandling produces a cluster of buds from the node. Pruning to older needles produces similar buds from each needle just below the chop. Stronger branches will usually produce more buds from more needles. Weaker ones may only get a few new buds.
I seem to get similar response to pruning as to decandling depending on time of year.
Pruning in early spring produces strong new buds that grow long and often have long bare necks.
Pruning early summer yields smaller, shorter new shoots with short bare necks.
Pruning later in summer or Autumn new buds may be delayed until the following spring when the shoots will be strong as in spring pruning.

I've found some file photos that may show how shoots grow from needles after hard pruning. Not sure what time of year these were pruned but shoot extension looks like mid spring prune.
First photo shows shoots from needles after pruning to the lowest remaining needles on a branch.
View attachment 444790

This shows new shoots from a node after pruning back to a previous node - very similar to response after decandling.
View attachment 444791

This shoot was younger when pruned and probably an upper branch - note lots of new buds emerging from base of needles (one from each) right down the remaining branch.
View attachment 444792

Man, I've been reading about black pine development for a while now, and with alllll the resources, none actually made it clear about what happens when you prune a pine branch. Lots of talk about buds where needles are, but almost always in the light of decandling.Your post and explanation is the most illustrative and concise explanation of how to develop new material on young pines. Well done and thank you!.
 

Maiden69

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There is a lot of information out there, I think the other place that I heard what Shibui just explained was at Mirai, but he was working with a Telperion field grown JBP. While the technique is the same, I was clueless as how to apply it to young trees in development. I think this is the only situation where Mirai's content is lacking big time. Yes they have a few "Nursery stock" material videos, but there is no follow up on them. Only on the ones that made a big impact.

Jonas also have good material on JBP, but his technique is a little different, he "slows down" the sacrifice, which is why I asked Shibui if he does that, when. I can't wait to see how much thickness all that growth on top of the sacrifice will bring to the trunk below.
 

Shibui

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@Shibui thanks for the detailed explanation. I know you advocate a series of small/medium chops for deciduous trees, do you do the same for pines? If so, how thick would you let a sacrifice trunk get in a JBP before chopping and transitioning to the next one?
Like so many other aspects of bonsai there's no one answer for all cases. I think I've used a range of approaches on the trees I have grown with no single stand out technique.
Larger sacrifice branches will give faster thickening but will obviously leave a larger scar when removed. Individual growers need to decide whether they want fast and can live with a large scar or whether they would rather take a few more years and end up with smaller scar.
To some extent it depends whether the scar will be visible from the chosen front. I'll certainly leave larger sacrifice branches where the cut will be hidden.
Also depends whether the chop can be disguised as jin, uro, etc. If you can meaningfully work a scar into the design then it may not matter if it is larger.

Some of my better attempts at pines have had several sacrifice branches that were removed at different stages during growth so early removals were almost healed by further rapid growth.
I'm not sure if it's a matter of 'slowing down' a sacrifice. More a matter of working out how many to use, where and when it's appropriate to remove any of them.

I currently have some black pines in the grow beds with relatively large sacrifice trunks. I'll get to them later in winter but suspect they will all need to have the sacrifice removed as lower branches have weakened considerably as a result of combined tall, strong leader and weed competition shading lower shoots.
 

Thomas J.

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As was mentioned above these are not ready for decandeling, they need to grow more to thicken the trunks up at least a bit more. The first pic is around 3-4 yrs growth and the second pic is at 7yrs growth where I decided to stop the growth on mine, if I was younger and had more years ahead of me they would still be growing up and out. This is pretty much the growth you should be looking for at least, and don't put them in a bonsai pot until you are ready for the final phase, keep them in the colander or pond basket until then, you'll be glad you did. :) jbp51.jpg

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Adair M

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There is a lot of information out there, I think the other place that I heard what Shibui just explained was at Mirai, but he was working with a Telperion field grown JBP. While the technique is the same, I was clueless as how to apply it to young trees in development. I think this is the only situation where Mirai's content is lacking big time. Yes they have a few "Nursery stock" material videos, but there is no follow up on them. Only on the ones that made a big impact.

Jonas also have good material on JBP, but his technique is a little different, he "slows down" the sacrifice, which is why I asked Shibui if he does that, when. I can't wait to see how much thickness all that growth on top of the sacrifice will bring to the trunk below.
LOL!!!! I would follow what Jonas does with JBP rather than what Ryan does! Jonas HAS FAR MORE EXPERIENCE than Ryan does with growing JBP!
 
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I would also follow Jonas’ advice with growing JBP.
Slowing down the sacrifice branch is necessary to prevent the tree from growing tall and shedding the interior/low folliage. Thats what pines naturally do so you have to counteract the natural tendency by slowing down the vigorous sacrifice branches.

Also Ryan does the same thing with sacrifice branches on that feild grown pine you are talking about.
 
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