JBP cuttings w/ dark colored needles?

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I’ve got a few JBP cuttings that I managed to get going this year, they’ve been doing pretty well by my standards, growing like wild once they got acclimated to the outside.

Since the weather is starting to turn in my parts (we‘ve been approaching freezing temps at night) I’ve noticed a couple getting a weird color to them, darkening significantly
563E5870-FB09-42D3-8286-0C55ACB0C24E.jpeg
You can see the one on the right has retained its healthy green, but the needle tips on the other one certainly have not.

Thoughts? Reaction to the cold? I planned to sink the entire flat into the ground same as all my others.
 

Bonsai Nut

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I'm gonna wait to see what the Chicago natives say about JBP in Chi-Town :) I grew up there, but never kept JBP seedlings in the cold.
 

sorce

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Mine were fine until last winter when they got no "warm up" to cool down and died.

Sorce
 
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@sorce i remember you saying that last year’s Halloween snow is probably what did yours in.

I know they aren’t as hardy as say, a JWP. But it hasn’t been nearly cold enough, or I wouldn’t think it has been. I filled the empty spaces in the flat with some dirt to try to insulate the roots a tad before burying the whole thing. I thought that would only help but maybe it’s holding too much water?? Not like the roots are into that much tho
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Mine went purple too in the cold. They also turned back green in spring.. Or yellow in my case.
They survived a few nights of frost (-5°C) on the bench.
I'm just glad they're not my problem anymore.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Haines' Trees

I have a a couple cork bark varieties of JBP. The needles darken some, but still stay a shade of green over winter. Other species of pine get very purple. My jack pine seedlings keep their turgor in their needles, but the needles get almost brown, some get more purple, one or two get nearly black, a few stay blue-purple-green, and some stay normal green all winter. There is genetic differences from seedling to seedling.

IF the texture of the needles remains similar to "normal summer green" then you do not really have a problem.

Although, here is something to consider. When did these seedlings arrive. How long did it take for them to perk up after being grown indoors? How many weeks of "normal growth" have they had. You might be looking at stress, because they have not had adequate time to adjust to winter coming. If you fear that they have not had time to adjust, perhaps you could find a way to winter them frost free all winter. As much as possible keep them below 40 F, but above freezing.

If you bring them into a garage or other area to avoid frosts at night, but get them outside first thing in the morning, we may have a long period where they can adapt to the cold. Some Chicago autumns we get a couple nights of frost, then a week or more frost free, then a couple more nights of frost. I have in the past played the "in and out" dance well into November, one year we did not freeze solid until near Christmas. I went canoeing on New years day, it was so warm. Well it was in the 50's, which was warm enough.

In general though, I treat my JBP as zone 7 subtropicals rather than as a hardy pine. I winter all my JBP in a well house that never gets below freezing. I do leave them in the back yard until they get a few hard freezes, I bring them in before temperatures go below +25 F. Usually I bring then in at about +28F. then they go into the dark well house for the remainder of the winter.
 
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Thanks for the response Leo!

For the most part the needles feel as they did during the summer, I haven’t noticed a texture difference in the ones I’ve inspected. Although I have a few that aren’t turning alongside the ones that are; maybe it is just a variance like that.

As for them having time to adjust to my climate, they should be fine. I brought the seed last year and started them myself. When they were a month old or so I cut them and replanted into better media. Once they showed signs of rooting, they went outside. That was probably late May.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Plenty of time. I would then winter them the same as I would winter an "adult" JBP. That is some protection from extreme cold. What ever you do for Japanese maples should be good enough for the JBP. I use my well house, but that is not standard equipment with Chicago homes. LOL. My house is around 100 years old, was a farm house until my suburb came into being.
 
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They sit right behind my shed, so fortunately I won’t have a long way to go to shelter them from light frosts. Not worth burying the flat tho? Better to do the two step?
 

cmeg1

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First year seedlings can do this.....I’d be a bit neevous something so tiny in the ground...with snow and melt with frozen aoil...could drown......I’d put in a cooler or something.
 

Brad in GR

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@Haines' Trees

I have a a couple cork bark varieties of JBP. The needles darken some, but still stay a shade of green over winter. Other species of pine get very purple. My jack pine seedlings keep their turgor in their needles, but the needles get almost brown, some get more purple, one or two get nearly black, a few stay blue-purple-green, and some stay normal green all winter. There is genetic differences from seedling to seedling.

IF the texture of the needles remains similar to "normal summer green" then you do not really have a problem.

Although, here is something to consider. When did these seedlings arrive. How long did it take for them to perk up after being grown indoors? How many weeks of "normal growth" have they had. You might be looking at stress, because they have not had adequate time to adjust to winter coming. If you fear that they have not had time to adjust, perhaps you could find a way to winter them frost free all winter. As much as possible keep them below 40 F, but above freezing.

If you bring them into a garage or other area to avoid frosts at night, but get them outside first thing in the morning, we may have a long period where they can adapt to the cold. Some Chicago autumns we get a couple nights of frost, then a week or more frost free, then a couple more nights of frost. I have in the past played the "in and out" dance well into November, one year we did not freeze solid until near Christmas. I went canoeing on New years day, it was so warm. Well it was in the 50's, which was warm enough.

In general though, I treat my JBP as zone 7 subtropicals rather than as a hardy pine. I winter all my JBP in a well house that never gets below freezing. I do leave them in the back yard until they get a few hard freezes, I bring them in before temperatures go below +25 F. Usually I bring then in at about +28F. then they go into the dark well house for the remainder of the winter.

Have 4 jack pine seedlings per your suggestion to pursue the species. They are turning purple.

Acquired some JBP this year and will follow your advice for overwintering. I have an egress window that I’m going to cover with plywood, should serve as a good bunker for my fall collected larch and JBP.

Haven’t had any issues with my JM mulched around and out of wind... but your posts have me worried I’m taking too much risk with them somewhat exposed.
 
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I think it’s just like when your skins capillaries swell with blood in the harsh cold and turn red. It’s just a guess here, I am self educated on biology/chemistry and I would give myself many F’s.

I think when plant tissue gets this kind of exposure especially in strong sun, it’s iron instead of blood that swells in the tissue causing this purple. Alternatively in intense heat I have seen green to red from over exposure.
Just a guess, I am very interested in learning more on this.
 

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I think when plant tissue gets this kind of exposure especially in strong sun, it’s iron instead of blood that swells in the tissue causing this purple. Alternatively in intense heat I have seen green to red from over exposure.
Just a guess, I am very interested in learning more on this.
It is a little more complex than that. This is based on pigments actively created by the plant. The reasons why are not completely understood yet.

Eat your heart out:
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Brad in GR
Your results with maples may be different than mine. GR is a touch warmer in winter than my IL home, which is where I did all my maple experiments.
Jack pines, yes, they do turn purple, kinda neat, isn't it. My named clones, 'Manomet' and 'Chippewa' both turn more a dark green, almost blackish - which may well be purple pigments layered in with the green. But some of the seedlings are almost a clean purple color, fun to see.

@KillerButts - the color changes we are seeing are not associated with "swelling". The process is not at all an inflammation process. Instead the process is more analogous to "suntan", in that it is not pathological. The pigments are produced without swelling, and they are produced either in order to protect tissues from intense winter sun, at a time (winter) when metabolism is too slow to repair chlorophyll and or other systems as quickly as the repairs can be made in summer. The alternate explanation is that the purple was always there, just being revealed by the normal withdraw of chlorophyll as part of the adaptations for winter. In winter trees lower the amount of water in cells, and increase their sugar content, as sugars act as antifreeze, preventing ice crystals forming, or keeping ice crystals smaller as water freezes in the plant tissues. The purple pigment, anthocyanin is in some ways similar to sugar in its water solubility, and can along with sugars have a similar effect in protecting from ice forming large damaging crystals. Increasing anthocyanin content may very well be an added "antifreeze" effort by the trees. But I don't know if we know if it is that the anthocyanins are actually increased in jack pine, or it the levels are constant and the withdraw of chlorophyll is simply revealing the anthocyanins. There is an experiment there that could be done.
 
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The purple pigment, anthocyanin is in some ways similar to sugar in its water solubility, and can along with sugars have a similar effect in protecting from ice forming large damaging crystals. Increasing anthocyanin content may very well be an added "antifreeze" effort by the trees.
Thanks I appreciate your text. Is the Anthocyanin brought to the area of exposure or is it present within the cell walls or tissue locally? Does Iron play a role in this process?
 

leatherback

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Is the Anthocyanin brought to the area of exposure or is it present within the cell walls or tissue locally? Does Iron play a role in this process?
Did you read the paper I linked to? It explores all this.
 
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Did you read the paper I linked to? It explores all this.
Yes sir thank you! I will need to read it a few more times with the google references for it to sink in especially considering much of the vocabulary was a tough read at least for me.

Not much went into the purpling but I appreciated learning about red pigmentations and ROS correlations. The graph was helpful as were those incredible pictures.

I didn’t see any mention of Iron unless I missed it. I also didn’t comprehend if it was explained, whether or not the Anthocyanin’s were delivered or were already present within the cell wall like I asked. This was all I recall “Cell structure of red leaf tissue varies depending on whether reddening is caused by Anthocyanins or Carotenoids (Fig. 2). Because of the vacuolar location of Anthocyanin, chloroplasts of Anthocyanic cells generally remain intact and functional throughout the winter, and chlorophyll content and leaf photosynthesis may match or surpass summer levels, especially on warmer winter days (Hacker & Neuner, 2006; Hughes & Smith, 2007a).”

It would seem that the Vacuoles act like mini appendix but that doesn’t explain how the Anthocyanin got there. I don’t understand from that read also if the gathering occurred at cell growth or if it was delivered upon cellular damage.


It was interesting to learn because (I previously mentioned this in simpler words) that in cases reddening was occurring as also a function of frost prevention/and or healing of frostbite not just heat. Though, “the extent to which anthocyanins affect the water potential and ⁄or freezing point of the cytosol has yet to be empirically tested. Both intra and interspecific in vivo studies that address this topic (although few) have yielded results generally inconsistent with an osmotic function.”

It’s probably my lack of understanding but my questions stand. I do feel it’s getting pretty in depth and I am not asking for a free class. I appreciate the links and comments.
 
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