JBP- Did I wait too long

[Hbomb]

Hello! So, this is my first JBP and from what I've read I may have waited too long to cut the branches(I live in Dallas). When would it be okay to prune back? Should I wait till the winter? Or should I let it grow to thicken the branches? Obviously the branches have done quite a bit of growing over the summer. I think I understand the principles of cutting the weaker branches first to allocate energy. Any advice/suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Hbomb]

Here is another view.

 

[Cypress187]

I think it needs to grow a long time, those branches are really thin.

 

[twisted trees]

I agree with Cypress, this is a long term project. I'm unsure about growth habits in Dallas but I'm willing to bet your tree is setting next years buds right now. Some minor trimming might be in order but you have very little foliage to stimulate vigor with. Next year let the top branches grow unrestricted to promote vigor and pinch the lower candles early before a long space form between last years growth and the first needles. Plan on using the lower branches to form your future tree with. Fertilize heavily with high nitrogen next year and maybe some strong bloom fertilizer to promote root growth this fall.

 

[Adair M]

Please! No more cutting!

The tree is very weak. Let it grow for now, and fertilize. Use fish emulsion every week from now until the first of December. This will help it develop buds for next spring.

That top section above the bar branches is dead. You always have to leave some needles (foliage) on a branch (trunk). They're what pulls food up the sap line. So, you CAN cut that section off.

One of those two remaining branches up top can (should) be wired up to become the new leader. If you want a tall tree eventually.

The internodes on this tree are far apart. Internodes, if you don't know, are the distances between branches. Pines usually only produce branches at internodes. So, you're not likely to get any more branches on this tree without grafting.

It's possible to get dormant needle buds to pop, but it's rare. And the tree has to be really strong for that to happen.

So fertilize well, next spring up pot into a slightly larger, deeper pot to build strength. And bury those surface roots a bit.

 

[twisted trees]

Please! No more cutting!

The tree is very weak. Let it grow for now, and fertilize. Use fish emulsion every week from now until the first of December. This will help it develop buds for next spring.

That top section above the bar branches is dead. You always have to leave some needles (foliage) on a branch (trunk). They're what pulls food up the sap line. So, you CAN cut that section off.

One of those two remaining branches up top can (should) be wired up to become the new leader. If you want a tall tree eventually.

The internodes on this tree are far apart. Internodes, if you don't know, are the distances between branches. Pines usually only produce branches at internodes. So, you're not likely to get any more branches on this tree without grafting.

It's possible to get dormant needle buds to pop, but it's rare. And the tree has to be really strong for that to happen.

So fertilize well, next spring up pot into a slightly larger, deeper pot to build strength. And bury those surface roots a bit.

I can agree with Adair's advice, no more cutting. At best I saw only two small cuts I would make with the understanding that JBPs will set buds this time of year where you live. Now fish emulsion? Ewww. I never understood the appeal and neither does my goldfish. Now the American Indians might have used a dead fish to grow corn but fertilizer has come a long way baby. Also I would recommend Julian Adams article on pine management in Bill Valavanis' International Bonsai. Here's a linc http://www.adamsbonsai.com/pine_foliage.pdf

 

[Hbomb]

Thank you for your replies! I'm glad I brought this here.

As far as fertilizer(I know there are many different opinions out there) i've been using Peters 20-20-20 and osmocote. Do I need to switch to something else during the fall/winter?

 

[Adair M]

I use inorganic soil, but organic fertilizer.

The chemical fertilizers are ok, but can accumulate salts.

The scientists in this forum will scoff at what I'm about to say because I can't "prove" it: my experience is using Chem type fertilizers produces rather stiff branches. Snappy. Whereas using organic fertilizers produces branches that are more plyable, easier to bend, and when wired, I can adjust their positions easier.

No, I can't prove it. It's just that over the years working with trees grown in inorganic soil but fed with organic fertilizer are just softer. The twigs bend easier. I'm specifically referring to pines and junipers since that's what work with most.

 

[Paradox]

I use inorganic soil, but organic fertilizer.

The chemical fertilizers are ok, but can accumulate salts.

The scientists in this forum will scoff at what I'm about to say because I can't "prove" it: my experience is using Chem type fertilizers produces rather stiff branches. Snappy. Whereas using organic fertilizers produces branches that are more plyable, easier to bend, and when wired, I can adjust their positions easier.

No, I can't prove it. It's just that over the years working with trees grown in inorganic soil but fed with organic fertilizer are just softer. The twigs bend easier. I'm specifically referring to pines and junipers since that's what work with most.

Interesting observation.

Not gona scoff at it because I dont know for a fact that its not true. I am a scientist btw. Dont put us all in the same boat, some of us DO have an open mind.

 

[0soyoung]

some of us DO have an open mind.

The challenge, though, is to not be so open minded that your brain falls out.

 

[garywood]

I use inorganic soil, but organic fertilizer.

The chemical fertilizers are ok, but can accumulate salts.

The scientists in this forum will scoff at what I'm about to say because I can't "prove" it: my experience is using Chem type fertilizers produces rather stiff branches. Snappy. Whereas using organic fertilizers produces branches that are more plyable, easier to bend, and when wired, I can adjust their positions easier.

No, I can't prove it. It's just that over the years working with trees grown in inorganic soil but fed with organic fertilizer are just softer. The twigs bend easier. I'm specifically referring to pines and junipers since that's what work with most.

Adair, it's an interesting subject. The two most abundant elements in the earths crust is Alumina and Silica. Alumina is toxic and Silica is good for strength (or) rigidity of cells. The interesting part is there is no transport protein for either. To me that is amazing ;-) (chemical) fertilizers can possibly be (contaminated) with silicates combined with potassium for instance to inter the cellar structure and cause (Stiffness) (brittleness) but then again I'm not a scientist ;-)

 

[Adair M]

Adair, it's an interesting subject. The two most abundant elements in the earths crust is Alumina and Silica. Alumina is toxic and Silica is good for strength (or) rigidity of cells. The interesting part is there is no transport protein for either. To me that is amazing ;-) (chemical) fertilizers can possibly be (contaminated) with silicates combined with potassium for instance to inter the cellar structure and cause (Stiffness) (brittleness) but then again I'm not a scientist ;-)

What ever you said, must make some sense to you! Lol!!!

Stiffness in a branch comes as the wood lignifies. There's all the layers, bark, cambium, phloem, xylem, etc. Perhaps organic fertilizers favor one layer more than the other? Does the "stiffness" come from an internal layer of cells drying out? Maybe Chem fertilizers are more conducive to that and organics aren't? Maybe organics are less effective, so there's not enough growth in the layers, so the tree cannot afford to let a layer dry out and die and become stiff? I don't know.

It just seems that the trees that have been raised (or living in) inorganic soil, and fed with organic ferts are more supple, and less likely to snap. Seems, too, they're thinner. So, maybe the organic ferts are less efficient at delivering whatever minerals are necessary for developing stiffness.

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy Hbomb!

@garywood @Adair M

I don't doubt there is science behind it...

I believe it because the Chem Fert companies sell product that make plants "stronger".
For them....Stiffness is good.
For the toad....not so much!

Sorce

 

[Paradox]

The challenge, though, is to not be so open minded that your brain falls out.

Not to worry, my brain is safe and comfortable in its bone home.

 

[ColinFraser]

The scientists in this forum will scoff at what I'm about to say because I can't "prove" it: my experience is using Chem type fertilizers produces rather stiff branches. Snappy. Whereas using organic fertilizers produces branches that are more plyable, easier to bend, and when wired, I can adjust their positions easier.

No, I can't prove it. It's just that over the years working with trees grown in inorganic soil but fed with organic fertilizer are just softer. The twigs bend easier. I'm specifically referring to pines and junipers since that's what work with most.

Maybe growth rate is the difference - trees being "grown out" tend to be in large pots in more organic soil (or the ground) and receive chemical fertilizers (I hate that description; everything is chemical damnit). Trees in inorganic soil receiving organic fertilizer tend to be in smaller pots and have their growth controlled more.
Perhaps the coarse fast growth (so fewer layers/rings for a given branch diameter) could contribute to a branch being "snappier" than one grown more slowly.
Obviously just speculation, but it does seem more plausible than some of the other possibilities . . .

 

[ColinFraser]

Pines usually only produce branches at internodes. So, you're not likely to get any more branches on this tree without grafting.

Just to be clear on terminology - Pines tend to only produce branches at NODES - an INTERNODE is the space between two nodes (where a pine is unlikely to bud).
Edit: I know you know Adair, I'm just making sure someone learning it for the first time gets the right terms

 

[Adair M]

Just to be clear on terminology - Pines tend to only produce branches at NODES - an INTERNODE is the space between two nodes (where a pine is unlikely to bud).
Edit: I know you know Adair, I'm just making sure someone learning it for the first time gets the right terms

You are absolutely correct, Colin.

It's difficult to move the thoughts in my head to my iPhone, via my thumbs! It's amazing my posts make any sense at all