JBP freeze burn?

[Mayank]

Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum and this is my first post. Due to construction at our house over winter I could not place my outside bonsais in their usual wintering spot and (made the mistake?) put them in the garage. I should've put them on wood or foam and not on the cold concrete. Also when I was at work I suspect the garage door was not always closed by the construction workers and on the the coldest days (which were many this winter in the Detroit area) this may have been a factor? Pines were hit hardest. Balsam fir had needles on some entire branches die but every single one is budding out and appears alive (thank goodness). Any thoughts about the pines? I removed the brown/yellow needles to help them (should I not have?!)

 

[Mayank]

Oh here's a close up

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Very likely freeze damage. JBP is definitely not winter hardy outside in Detroit. The tiny bit of green is hopeful, but I wouldn’t cut any more needles just to avoid further damage. If you see new buds extending, it may turn the corner and improve. I would not candle-cut this summer, but let all the new growth extend and open, and then in fall remove the dead needles. Best of luck!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Welcome to the site! Good for you for keeping Japanese black pine in Detroit without significant weather protection. They're almost semi-tropical in their native range. I'm with Brian - I wouldn't do ANYTHING to it except water it and keep it in full sun. Also watch that you don't over-fertilize it until you see strong growth.

As long as those buds are alive, you have a chance. You might lose some branches, but perhaps you will get an interesting new design out of it

 

[Dav4]

Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum and this is my first post. Due to construction at our house over winter I could not place my outside bonsais in their usual wintering spot and (made the mistake?) put them in the garage. I should've put them on wood or foam and not on the cold concrete. Also when I was at work I suspect the garage door was not always closed by the construction workers and on the the coldest days (which were many this winter in the Detroit area) this may have been a factor? Pines were hit hardest. Balsam fir had needles on some entire branches die but every single one is budding out and appears alive (thank goodness). Any thoughts about the pines? I removed the brown/yellow needles to help them (should I not have?!)

Fwiw, there's nothing wrong with putting the pots on a concrete slab... the concrete can't get any colder then the earth it lays on top off, which usually stays within a few degrees of 32F. I overwintered trees this way in an unattached garage for over a decade in zone 6A MA... saw temps fall below 0 F every winter and never lost a tree. I DID cover the pots with wood chip mulch an water in thoroughly every Thanksgiving weekend and let them freeze solid and stay that way until March... placing snow on the frozen mulch surface was all the watering I did through the winter. The mulch keeps the root ball from getting too cold and prevents the soil from drying out via sublimation.

 

[BackyardBonsai]

I think you did what I think is the right move. Cut off all the brown needle, put the tree back in the sun and watch the soil for overwater. The buds looks healthy so it should bounce back. Since there aren't much needle left, watching the water is very critical as transpiration is very minimal.

 

[0soyoung]

JBP is definitely not winter hardy outside in Detroit.

Detroit is in USDA zone 6. It is a common claim (by growers, botanical gardens, etc.) p. thunbergii is hardy to zone 5. However any tree will have trouble with hard freezes if it hasn't been conditioned by a sequence of deepening freezes. Regardless, the roots in pots would definitely be less cold hardy and require some protection comparable to being in the ground.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Detroit is in USDA zone 6. It is a common claim (by growers, botanical gardens, etc.) p. thunbergii is hardy to zone 5. However any tree will have trouble with hard freezes if it hasn't been conditioned by a sequence of deepening freezes. Regardless, the roots in pots would definitely be less cold hardy and require some protection comparable to being in the ground.

Which takes us back to my point. I couldn’t winter JBP in Iowa when I lived there, Vance has stated problems with them in MI, and clearly this one took a beating over the winter too. I’ve had damage on mine when temps dropped into the single digits here in Bama. Even if you’re skilled or lucky, it’s a gamble when they’re in pots and getting cold.

 

[coh]

During the really cold winter we had a few years ago, a bunch of very experienced people in the local club lost JBPs that they kept in their garages. They had kept them that way for years but that winter was just too cold.

I keep mine in temperature controlled shelters, lowest temp about 25-27 F. They are on tables with no mulch and stay frozen solid for weeks or months at a time at those temps with no apparent problems. I wouldn't risk exposing unprotected pots to temps much lower than low-mid 20s but I have no idea what exact temp is too low (or some combination of temp/time).

 

[Mayank]

Gotcha. Thanks for all your feedback! I really appreciate it.

 

[Mayank]

Hi everyone this is what one of them looks like after removing the yellow brown needles or part of them up to the green.

 

[vancehanna]

Having gown form seed and seedlings for over 30 yrs in the greater Detroit region I have to contest the comments regarding hardiness of JBP. Yes they are more subject to loss if not proposed cared for during dormant winter.
Dr. Vora is my student And although the mistake was wintering them over In his garage. I hope he will post new photographs of them showing the full recovery soon.

 

[vancehanna]

These two are 22yrs from seed and are just take shape. I’m now a residing in Merced ,CA and they’re just now breaking new candles after reduction. They’ve only been resident of the Golden State since September of 2018. (Thank You Michigan Dept of Ag and California Dept of Ag) (it took a full year of red tape and tons of paper along with a wheelbarrow of $$ for quarantine and special transport...

 

[LanceMac10]

Any good news @Mayank ? Hopefully it was only the needles that became desiccated and there was no root damage. Although the soil looks to be pretty lousy, that can't be helping.
I've managed to keep one for six years in good health. Which is nice, because I had now idea how to care for a JBP when I got it.


It could take a couple of growing seasons to recover from this set-back, but if I could, I would repot as soon as possible into the ol' lava, pumice, akadama soil blend. It's given me great results,expensive, but worth it!

….if your a Doctor, you might just have the dough in the cushions of your Lexus....


good luck and update when possible....and if your a Dad, Happy Father's day!!

 

[Mayank]

Thank you so much for the good wishes LanceMac 10. Yes two children 20 and 22. No Lexus only electric hahaha.One of them seems to be well on its way to recovery the other one don't see anything going on yet. Will post pictures when I get home tonight. Thank you for your concern.

 

[Mayank]

Having gown form seed and seedlings for over 30 yrs in the greater Detroit region I have to contest the comments regarding hardiness of JBP. Yes they are more subject to loss if not proposed cared for during dormant winter.
Dr. Vora is my student And although the mistake was wintering them over In his garage. I hope he will post new photographs of them showing the full recovery soon.
View attachment 247567View attachment 247567View attachment 247567

Welcome to bonsai nut @vancehanna . I am a newbie here but I've found everyone to be very nice and helpful. Also, @Vance Wood is a member here also so my world is complete . For others on this site, both @vancehanna and @Vance Wood are core founding members of our local bonsai club: Four seasons bonsai club in SE Michigan (fourseasonsbonsai.com) and both are great resources and I believe self-taught and I cannot speak highly enough of either Vance!

 

[Mayank]

BTW the balsam fir in my profile pic was collected in northern Michigan by @vancehanna in 1986 ☺

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

During the really cold winter we had a few years ago, a bunch of very experienced people in the local club lost JBPs that they kept in their garages. They had kept them that way for years but that winter was just too cold.

I keep mine in temperature controlled shelters, lowest temp about 25-27 F. They are on tables with no mulch and stay frozen solid for weeks or months at a time at those temps with no apparent problems. I wouldn't risk exposing unprotected pots to temps much lower than low-mid 20s but I have no idea what exact temp is too low (or some combination of temp/time).

Everything Chris said in the quote is exactly my experience here in zone 5b in Illinois. JBP are not hardy in bonsai pots in the greater Chicago-Milwaukee area. They need temperature protection over winter. An unheated garage is not enough. Period. This is my 30+ year experience. You might be fine 5 winters in a row, but before you hit the 10th winter, you will have cold outbreak that will kill off any JBP in a pot.

 

[Mayank]

Here's the latest images @LanceMac10
So this one's pretty much looking like it's given up the ghost...

 

[Mayank]

However this one's alive