JBP - Good Buy? Good Material? What do you think?

[Johnathan]

Okay, so I've been presented an opportunity to purchase a tree. It would immediately become my most refined tree, and most expensive lol

In keeping with the spirit of @Bananaman and his post about starting material quality, I just wanted to get the opinions of more experienced owners and hobbyists before I made a decision. Also suggestions on things that we should look for when making purchases of more refined or pre-bonsai trees.

Here is the tree. It was decandled in this picture.







Now, considering my profound and accumulated history of 17 months in the hobby, here is my opinion. While there is movement, there is not much in the lower half. The taper is a little extreme and abrupt. There are bar branches. The nebari is almost nonexistent. That weird root would need to be addressed.

The pot was factored into the price. It's a mica pot from what I understand.

What would you value the tree at? What would you consider when looking at the tree and think when purchasing?

 

[BonsaiButler]

Hi johnathan, to start the tree looks healthy which is a good thing. To my eye the biggest issue with it is the nebari and lower trunk. You could correct the branching over time however the trunk base will likely not get much better. The value is whatever someone is willing to pay for it, I would be willing to pay no more than 40-50$.

 

[Adair M]

Johnathan, that’s an xcellent “learner” tree. There’s enough there that given proper care it will look pretty good. It’s not so expensive that if you kill it your kids won’t be able to go to college.

It looks like a George Muranaka tree. He sells them for about $130 on eBay. The mica pot is worth $20. It would not be unreasonable to pay $200 for it.

It is not at all refined. I consider it good starter stock. But, it is far enough advanced that you will be able to see the effects of what decandling will do. Later this fall, when the old needles are pulled, it will start to look a LOT more refined. Then wire it out, the structure will get set, the branches better placed. Next years growth will strengthen the opened up structure, and another decandling will double the ramification...

Yes, a tree like that is a fantastic way to learn JBP.

 

[Adair M]

I would remove that wayward root. Can’t tell much about the nebari.

 

[coh]

Good reply Adair, I was going to post something similar. A 10 inch round mica pot lists for $22 on the meco bonsai (now superfly) website. One could certainly learn a lot about JBP techniques with a tree like this, and then probably sell it for more in a few years (on ebay or facebook) and move on to something better.

 

[Adair M]

Hi johnathan, to start the tree looks healthy which is a good thing. To my eye the biggest issue with it is the nebari and lower trunk. You could correct the branching over time however the trunk base will likely not get much better. The value is whatever someone is willing to pay for it, I would be willing to pay no more than 40-50$.

BButler, tell me where I can get a tree like that for $40 to $50. I will buy all they have!

 

[Maloghurst]

I would say Adair’s estimate is on the mark as well. It has decent bones with taper and branching and apex all close to the trunk. Honestly Adair’s price of 150-200 is a good appraisal but I’m guessing they are asking for more then that.

 

[Johnathan]

So the inverse taper shouldn't be of concern? Does the aspect of a quality tree to learn from out weigh the flaws in the tree?

 

[Adair M]

So the inverse taper shouldn't be of concern? Does the aspect of a quality tree to learn from out weigh the flaws in the tree?

The tree is young. When it starts to develop real bark, the taper will look better. You may decide to remove a branch where the reverse taper is.

You aren’t going to be able to buy a “perfect” starter for less than $1000. Not with that caliper of trunk. If you need more branches, learn to graft them on.

That’s great starter material. It’s going to take 5 or 6 years before it really starts looking good, but when it does, you’ll be happy you bought it when it was cheap!

 

[Bananaman]

So the inverse taper shouldn't be of concern? Does the aspect of a quality tree to learn from out weigh the flaws in the tree?

Absolutely not.

 

[Bananaman]

I paid 50.00 a piece for these. I consider these good starter pines. They are small and so didn't command a big price. They have plenty of small branching started so there are many choices. The trunks have decent taper and the bases are fairly nice. If one were to get their feet wet with any of these for 5 or more years, they would end up with a good quality shohin pine tree to show in the future. For 50.00 bucks.'

If you buy that, you work on that for the next five years, never turn it into anything good cause your still gonna have inverse taper, a straight trunk, lousy branching to deal with that is much too large already. And you will have paid 200.00 bucks for it and if your like me, you never seem to get your money back out unless the perfect sucker happens by. I don't see many of those......

Choices you have to make

 

[Bananaman]

Absolutely not.

That was for the second part of your question. The inverse taper is always a concern.

 

[Bananaman]

I'm going to REBS (Redwood Empire Bonsai Society) exhibit next weekend. I will be taking lots of pictures and try to get some of the vendor area. It will not be that great for you being in Oklahoma but it can show some of the things available around here and what one should be paying for material.

This exhibit is the largest and most prestigious, I feel, in the USA. This is Kathy Shaners Home Club and she is very dedicated to it. And it shows.

Just a sample from past shows.

 

[Adair M]

I'm going to REBS (Redwood Empire Bonsai Society) exhibit next weekend. I will be taking lots of pictures and try to get some of the vendor area. It will not be that great for you being in Oklahoma but it can show some of the things available around here and what one should be paying for material.

This exhibit is the largest and most prestigious, I feel, in the USA. This is Kathy Shaners Home Club and she is very dedicated to it. And it shows.

Just a sample from past shows.
View attachment 206420View attachment 206425View attachment 206426View attachment 206427View attachment 206428

Al, I was at the REBS show last year. Its a good show, for sure, but nothing on the scale as what Bill Valavanis puts on with the National Show.

 

[Bananaman]

Al, I was at the REBS show last year. Its a good show, for sure, but nothing on the scale as what Bill Valavanis puts on with the National Show.

Well the National show couldn't happen without a sample from the Nation. And since lots of Boon trees go, and lots of Rebs trees go, the National show couldn't be a great show without those trees. I have been going to Boons show since it started. Last year was a terrible year for the BIB exhibit. I've seen them all but two. I didn't make the REBS show last year, since it was on my dying wifes Birthday which is today, and died 11 days later. So I didn't see the show. But every exhibit has bad years and tree reshowing rules just like BIB. Go to the show over ten years and give me a raincheck. Frank Bardella died last year also and that could have been a huge problem. Frank was the "heart" of the club.

I would never base my opinion of a bonsai exhibit on seeing one exhibit.

...and besides. The Nationals is not a club show. Its the best of the best from lots of clubs an a whole different level.

 

[Lorax7]

For $200, you can get material with better potential. I’d say this is more in the $100 to $150 range.

 

[River's Edge]

So the inverse taper shouldn't be of concern? Does the aspect of a quality tree to learn from out weigh the flaws in the tree?

Not in my mind. No visible value in Nebari, limited movement or taper in the bottom trunk section. Unless it is a lot better than the picture shows I would not purchase. The main value in a pine is the Nebari and trunk. They are also the most difficult and time consuming to change.
Can you learn how to decandle and practise other techniques on it, of course. Practise trees that have limited potential should be cheap to acquire.

 

[TN_Jim]

Well the National show couldn't happen without a sample from the Nation. And since lots of Boon trees go, and lots of Rebs trees go, the National show couldn't be a great show without those trees. I have been going to Boons show since it started. Last year was a terrible year for the BIB exhibit. I've seen them all but two. I didn't make the REBS show last year, since it was on my dying wifes Birthday which is today, and died 11 days later. So I didn't see the show. But every exhibit has bad years and tree reshowing rules just like BIB. Go to the show over ten years and give me a raincheck. Frank Bardella died last year also and that could have been a huge problem. Frank was the "heart" of the club.

I would never base my opinion of a bonsai exhibit on seeing one exhibit.

...and besides. The Nationals is not a club show. Its the best of the best from lots of clubs an a whole different level.

I’m going a bit off of the topic, but condolences regarding your wife. My wife’s father passed away around this same exact time a year ago, and I have been working with my mother in law at their business since...a year is a unique something

@Johnathan, good thread, moving the wheels
Thanks

 

[Adair M]

Well the National show couldn't happen without a sample from the Nation. And since lots of Boon trees go, and lots of Rebs trees go, the National show couldn't be a great show without those trees. I have been going to Boons show since it started. Last year was a terrible year for the BIB exhibit. I've seen them all but two. I didn't make the REBS show last year, since it was on my dying wifes Birthday which is today, and died 11 days later. So I didn't see the show. But every exhibit has bad years and tree reshowing rules just like BIB. Go to the show over ten years and give me a raincheck. Frank Bardella died last year also and that could have been a huge problem. Frank was the "heart" of the club.

I would never base my opinion of a bonsai exhibit on seeing one exhibit.

...and besides. The Nationals is not a club show. Its the best of the best from lots of clubs an a whole different level.

Well, you said REBS “was the biggest and best”.

It was a very good show, trees were good, the “presentation” was not as good as I’ve seen elsewhere. Some trees were shown on mats rather than on quality stands, there were some “helter-kelter” displays of Shohin that looked more like a sales table than a “display”.

You may be right about last year’s BIB show. It was the 19th. I’m an unofficial member of BIB. As an Intensive grad, I can show in it. I can’t make the monthly meetings. But, I think that a lot of the best trees were withheld, waiting for the 20th show. I heard lots of people talking about what trees they were going to show NEXT year.

Last time at the Nationals, there were 298 trees. I had 6 Shohin and one regular sized trees, Kirby had two bonsai and 6 shohin, Boon had one, and without looking in the book, I can’t remember who else. But let’s say there were 4 more. That’s 20 out of 300. That’s 6%. At least those from California. Boon does have study groups all over and if you were to include those, it might have gotten up to 10% of the trees were Boon students.

A typical BIB show has about 75 trees. The REBS show didn’t feel like it had as many. Maybe 50.

They did have a nice vendor section.

It was a good time. The people were very nice and glad I came. Many of the REBS members are also BIB members, so it’s a bit incestuous.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi

Okay, so I've been presented an opportunity to purchase a tree. It would immediately become my most refined tree, and most expensive lol

In keeping with the spirit of @Bananaman and his post about starting material quality, I just wanted to get the opinions of more experienced owners and hobbyists before I made a decision. Also suggestions on things that we should look for when making purchases of more refined or pre-bonsai trees.

Here is the tree. It was decandled in this picture.

View attachment 206405

View attachment 206406

View attachment 206408

Now, considering my profound and accumulated history of 17 months in the hobby, here is my opinion. While there is movement, there is not much in the lower half. The taper is a little extreme and abrupt. There are bar branches. The nebari is almost nonexistent. That weird root would need to be addressed.

The pot was factored into the price. It's a mica pot from what I understand.

What would you value the tree at? What would you consider when looking at the tree and think when purchasing?

Hi Johnathan,
I may be a little biased, as I would be “over the moon” if there was anything like this anywhere in NZ.
I can’t share an opinion on this starter material, apart from it would be well worth the money, to practice new techniques on and to enjoy growing a more adult-like tree.
Go for it,
Charles