JBP how many flushes are possible?

[NateDav]

Want some knowledge from the more experienced bonsaists regarding JBP development and refinement. I have heard that it is possible to push 3 and even 4 flushes of growth per growing season in these multi flush pines. I live in central Texas, long growing season with mild winters. All of my JBPs have elongated and needles are emerging and separating but not completely hardened. I am beginning branch refinement on some trees, I usually start candle cutting on july 1. I hold fertilizer in June and remainder of year, then let grow and do shoot selection in fall. I dont touch till spring where I pull needles to balance strength. Gives me 2 flushes per year. How would I go about attempting 3 or even 4 flushes? Is this possible to do without adversely affecting the tree? Many thanks in advance.

 

[River's Edge]

I would suggest you review the following for a better understanding of JBP development and refinement. It is a great place to start. The article is 28 pages long and an excellent overview of Black Pine decandling and its role in refinement.
Http://Bonsaitonight.com/2016/07/22/decandling-black-pine-bonsai-an-overview/

Focus on the aspect of timing and the multiple purposes/results that can be obtained with the variety of techniques that can be employed. Then consider the advantages of combining those techniques within the same tree.
After that you should have the answer to your question.

 

[bwaynef]

@River's Edge, that's a fantastic resource. I thought that I've read all of bonsaitonight ...but folks keep posting articles from there that I've missed. Thanks.

@NateDavHCBTX, In general, to get more flushes, decandle earlier. If you have normally decandled July 1, try late May. The next decandling might happen in August. Its imperative that the tree be healthy. I can see a repotted tree having enough vigor to pull through, but I'd watch it for signs that its strong enough before starting. It might be safest not to do multiple decandlings the same season a tree's been repotted. Also, I'd probably fertilize straight through the year.

I say all this but know that I've never done it on a 2-needle pine. I've performed it in back-to-back seasons on a native pine and got pretty good results. (That tree later succumbed to an over-aggressive repot.)

 

[River's Edge]

@River's Edge, that's a fantastic resource. I thought that I've read all of bonsaitonight ...but folks keep posting articles from there that I've missed. Thanks.

@NateDavHCBTX, In general, to get more flushes, decandle earlier. If you have normally decandled July 1, try late May. The next decandling might happen in August. Its imperative that the tree be healthy. I can see a repotted tree having enough vigor to pull through, but I'd watch it for signs that its strong enough before starting. It might be safest not to do multiple decandlings the same season a tree's been repotted. Also, I'd probably fertilize straight through the year.

I say all this but know that I've never done it on a 2-needle pine. I've performed it in back-to-back seasons on a native pine and got pretty good results. (That tree later succumbed to an over-aggressive repot.)

I would not reccomend multiple decandling in the same growing season. The desired effect can be obtained through timing and combination of techniques. That was the reason i posted the article.

 

[NateDav]

@River's Edge, that's a fantastic resource. I thought that I've read all of bonsaitonight ...but folks keep posting articles from there that I've missed. Thanks.

@NateDavHCBTX, In general, to get more flushes, decandle earlier. If you have normally decandled July 1, try late May. The next decandling might happen in August. Its imperative that the tree be healthy. I can see a repotted tree having enough vigor to pull through, but I'd watch it for signs that its strong enough before starting. It might be safest not to do multiple decandlings the same season a tree's been repotted. Also, I'd probably fertilize straight through the year.

I say all this but know that I've never done it on a 2-needle pine. I've performed it in back-to-back seasons on a native pine and got pretty good results. (That tree later succumbed to an over-aggressive repot.)

Yes I have read through Jonas' article several times. Indeed a truly helpful resource.

Thanks for everyone's input.

I'll probably try and decandling earlier with heft heft heavy fertilization and see what happens. Likely, I would not do this year in and year out as I do not want to exhaust the ? resources.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Want some knowledge from the more experienced bonsaists regarding JBP development and refinement. I have heard that it is possible to push 3 and even 4 flushes of growth per growing season in these multi flush pines. I live in central Texas, long growing season with mild winters. All of my JBPs have elongated and needles are emerging and separating but not completely hardened. I am beginning branch refinement on some trees, I usually start candle cutting on july 1. I hold fertilizer in June and remainder of year, then let grow and do shoot selection in fall. I dont touch till spring where I pull needles to balance strength. Gives me 2 flushes per year. How would I go about attempting 3 or even 4 flushes? Is this possible to do without adversely affecting the tree? Many thanks in advance.

In SoCal it is very easy to get 3 flushes. I have heard about 4 but have not tried it.

What is possible versus what is best are two different things. All of my black pines are a little different. Right now some are pushing candles, and those candles will elongate until June. I usually decandle 1st week of July. Others have pushed candles that have immediately opened. I could decandle those now... and get a second push... and those candles would be ready for decandling in August.

Each round of decandling weakens the tree while it creates ramification in the generation of buds at the base of the candle. The weaker the tree, the weaker the candles, the fewer (and weaker) the buds, etc. Add in the complexity of apical dominance and energy balancing, and it becomes a dance with each tree behaving and reacting a little differently.

Is it possible? Yes. Whether it is best or not depends on the strength of the tree, etc. Black pines grow like weeds in Texas and SoCal. They aren't as robust in other parts of the country with shorter growing seasons and colder winter temps.

One thing I will say about your regimen. It is better to cut needles in the winter to balance strength (December). That way your emerging candles should be more balanced. If you wait until spring until you pull needles, it is too late and you won't get the same impact.

 

[0soyoung]

To the compliment of the question posed, I'd be willing to bet that much after the summer solstice, it won't reflush, just set buds, until sometime after the winter solstice, but one likely needs a warm greenhouse or to be in a tropical climate to see if I'm right.

 

[River's Edge]

The climate does make a difference, for example we reccomend that more needles be retained throughout the winter for strength and then remove the extra in the very early spring. This ensures a healthier tree going in to the refining season. This is important in areas with colder winters.

 

[NateDav]

In SoCal it is very easy to get 3 flushes. I have heard about 4 but have not tried it.

What is possible versus what is best are two different things. All of my black pines are a little different. Right now some are pushing candles, and those candles will elongate until June. I usually decandle 1st week of July. Others have pushed candles that have immediately opened. I could decandle those now... and get a second push... and those candles would be ready for decandling in August.

Each round of decandling weakens the tree while it creates ramification in the generation of buds at the base of the candle. The weaker the tree, the weaker the candles, the fewer (and weaker) the buds, etc. Add in the complexity of apical dominance and energy balancing, and it becomes a dance with each tree behaving and reacting a little differently.

Is it possible? Yes. Whether it is best or not depends on the strength of the tree, etc. Black pines grow like weeds in Texas and SoCal. They aren't as robust in other parts of the country with shorter growing seasons and colder winter temps.

One thing I will say about your regimen. It is better to cut needles in the winter to balance strength (December). That way your emerging candles should be more balanced. If you wait until spring until you pull needles, it is too late and you won't get the same impact.

Jeez I had a really nice reply to this, submitted had an error and now its lost. ?

Here I'll try again... Summary... Your example given. You have pines that have rapid candle and needle elongation. This allows to prune in spring, get new flush of growth that can be pruned in August. Is this correct?

I have a shohin pine that I'm having trouble refining, it's vigorous. I did not fertilize past the spring last year. 5-4-6 organic pellets from Feb thru May. I initially cut candles in June one year, then July last year. Needles too big and branches not treat for reduction in length.

Like your case scenario, this pine had flushed growth and needles emerged and now dark green and hardened. They are firmly attached to branch.. to me this would be evidence I could prune again?

Perhaps this well help me balance the growth and achieve the branch ramifications and needle reduction I desire.

I could also just continue to do the standard approach with allowing elongation or perhaps another flush to continue until summer. Then instead of pruning in July do this in August. The unresticted growth, however, IMO will drive vigorous long second flush.

I'm just trying to seize opportunity to control the vigor and growth of the tree. An opportunity missed is lost forever. Thoughts?

 

[leatherback]

Personally, I wonder why you would want the third or fourth flush if it is detrimental to the healthy of the tree..

 

[NateDav]

Maybe not so much detrimental but rather assist in controlling the vigor. But like I mentioned, I'm going to push my pruning back to August this year and see how that does. However, I have another piec4w of material that appears to have needles that have mostly hardened off. So I'm going to try and fertilize heavily and prune the spring flush in May, see if anything develops. And maybe if that works out try another pruning in August/September. I'll keep you all posted.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Personally, I wonder why you would want the third or fourth flush if it is detrimental to the healthy of the tree..

All decandling is detrimental to the health of the tree to some extent, at least in the short term. Perhaps detrimental is too strong a term... stressful might be better. Using decandling properly helps you balance strength and develop ramification. If you have a strong tree and a longer growing season, you can use this to your advantage to accelerate development. It is somewhat similar to having a strong deciduous that you can defoliate twice in a summer.

 

[sorce]

Pics!

To what Aesthetic end?

Why are we doing this?

How would this help the design if it were to help the design?

Forgive me but I don't know how we got so far into this flushes conversation without one question as to why.

This is one of those things that creates Taters...or treeblers....shitts...

We know that backbudding is good so we do and do and do....
But thats not the only thing happening.

Its like we know homeruns are good...so we keep hitting them....but what if you get paid only on hits with multiple r.b.i.'s? Cant just hit homers.

All those transitions and nodes and angles are going to become part of your inner branching in the future.

Right now.....it sounds like were building a ...

A.....

 

[sorce]

?

Sorce

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You're really asking two questions. The first question is why decandle multi flush Pines at all? The second question is why would you want to decandle multi flush Pines more than once per year?

Because multi flush Pines are extremely apically dominant, if you did not balance strength in the tree by holding back the strong areas and developing the weak areas the tree would throw one central leader straight up, and secondary areas of the tree would weaken and die back. There are many methods to balance strength in a multi flush Pine, and decandling is part of an annual process that includes needle pulling, bud selection, pruning, and decandling ( not necessarily in that order depending on many factors in the state of development of the tree).

The OP was simply asking in climates with long growing seasons how many times it was possible to do it, and how you might approach doing it more than once, but he didn't really ask why or when you would want to do it? More is definitely not always better in this case. In the case of a weak pine it could definitely be detrimental. In many cases there will be years when you don't want to decandle at all.

There have been tons of other threads and articles about development of Black Pine so I won't try to replicate what has already been posted. Sadly I am not at my PC right now so it is difficult for me to link content that is on the site

 

[NateDav]

@BNut thanks for your replies, they are well said and exactly where my thoughts and feelings are.

@LB What BNut said, his reaponse was spot on.

@sorce I'm honored to have you participating as well. Never would have thought so many seasoned veterans would have taken notice. I have read many of your replies and rants over the years. You are quite humorous and knowledgeable. BNut summarized the discussion for you. I like the virtual you provided... Dont know that species, it appears to be maple and pine at the same time. ? Let us know how it develops over time.

@Bnut is my logic and approach in reply #9 making sense? Is this the scenario where you've gotten a third flush on your pines in the past?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

View attachment 237246


?

Sorce

Nonsense, rascal.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

@Bnut is my logic and approach in reply #9 making sense? Is this the scenario where you've gotten a third flush on your pines in the past?

Here is what I have experienced. Note that this is specific to southern Cal and would probably not be the same in other parts of the country.

Because our growing season starts earlier, our trees wake up earlier and candles start elongating (and opening) earlier than most other parts of the country. If you took the state of development of the candle as the guide to determine when to cut, you might cut candles as early as May 1... because they are fully elongated and already starting to open. If you do this, you are going to find that you have a second set of fully developed candles by August... with three full months of growing season still ahead of you. If you DON'T cut these candles, you will get some leggy growth with longer needles than you would want, and your strength balancing might be set back. So if you cut your candles early, you need to be prepared for a second round of candle cutting in the same year.

Instead, it is better to wait... and wait... and wait... long after your candles have opened and perhaps even past the point that most other parts of the country have cut. I usually aim for July 1. When you cut candles this late in the season, the tree is past its long spring/early summer growth push, and the second flush of growth that emerges will be weak enough that you can leave it until bud selection and needle plucking in the fall/early winter.

It sounds counter intuitive that our longer growing seasons means to wait LONGER to cut candles... but I have found it to be true (at least if you just want two flushes of growth).

 

[hemmy]

To the compliment of the question posed, I'd be willing to bet that much after the summer solstice, it won't reflush, just set buds, until sometime after the winter solstice, but one likely needs a warm greenhouse or to be in a tropical climate to see if I'm right.

I’m not sure how variable the reflush response is season to season. But the couple times on a couple trees that I have decandled mid-July, they only set buds with no reflush. As @bonsainut stated, July 1st seems to be a good time in our location. Of course also dependent on the desired size of the needles.

 

[0soyoung]

I’m not sure how variable the reflush response is season to season. But the couple times on a couple trees that I have decandled mid-July, they only set buds with no reflush. As @bonsainut stated, July 1st seems to be a good time in our location. Of course also dependent on the desired size of the needles.

When I measured stem thickening of various species, I found that the summer solstice was sensed by mid-July. This is, of course, sensed by the foliage and the message is communicated down the stem, meaning there will be some variation from one branch to another. Hence, I think that candle pruning after mid-July will just produce buds, pretty much regardless of climate (the climate being conducive to growing the species). IOW, one had best candle prune by mid-July.

Is there anything I can do to talk you into waiting until late July, or even well into August, to verify/refute my hypothesis? It 'never' freezes in Ventura and 40F is just a cold night - right?