JBP-Humble Beginnings From Seed

[sikadelic]

I decided to start JBP from seed this year. I stratified the seeds for 60 days and planted them at the beginning of last month. I was not as successful with germination as I hoped with only about 50% sprouting. 3 ended up dieing and I am left with 13 healthy sprouts.

I have 2 questions:
1. I still have the heating pad on beneath the germination station and have been elevating the dome to prevent contact with the sprouts. Should I turn the heating pad off and leave the dome off now?
2. Approximately how long until I see the violet color change indicating they're ready for the seedling cutting method?

Thanks!

 

[tmmason10]

I decided to start JBP from seed this year. I stratified the seeds for 60 days and planted them at the beginning of last month. I was not as successful with germination as I hoped with only about 50% sprouting. 3 ended up dieing and I am left with 13 healthy sprouts.

I have 2 questions:
1. I still have the heating pad on beneath the germination station and have been elevating the dome to prevent contact with the sprouts. Should I turn the heating pad off and leave the dome off now?
2. Approximately how long until I see the violet color change indicating they're ready for the seedling cutting method?

Thanks!

Sorry, I meant to respond last night but fell asleep. I would leave the some on for a bit longer, maybe a week or two. The violet should appear in about 4-6 weeks if I remember correctly, you may be ready to do seedling cuttings in the middle or end of May. It's too cold here for mine to have sprouted but I grew some two seasons ago and I think that was about the timeframe.

 

[tmmason10]

Oh, and I did document with a couple of blog posts if you wanted to check them out. I just followed the pines book.

 

[sikadelic]

The stone lantern pine book was my main reference too. I missed the part about seed depth and ended up planting 2-3 times deeper than the width of the seed. That might be why my success rate wasn't as good as I had hoped.

Thanks for the info. I've got a bunch of 4 inch pots ready to go!

 

[nip]

I have had better success with minimal dome usage. My survival rate was about 50% with a dome my first year. Several would die or not germinate. The next couple years I cut holes in the dome since I suspected some airflow would improve the success rate. I now do not use any dome or protection, I simply keep them out of the mid day sun until they are a few weeks old. I have even grown them in full sun from the start. I also do not stratify or use heat. Those techniques are useful for other types of trees, but pine seedlings are very resilient. (Unless your area is excessively windy or cold in the spring) I will cover or bring them inside if the weather gets crazy. I get probably 90% success by just popping them into turface and watering when the surface gets dry. Good luck with your mini pines.

 

[jeanluc83]

I’m starting some pine from seed this spring as well. In my case it is pitch pine, pinus rigidia. I was going to start some black pine as well but purchased some 1 year old bare root seedlings instead. They were fairly cheap and I figured I would not have to worry about seeds germinating. I wanted to start some pitch pine because I believe that they are not utilized enough and to my knowledge no one is starting them from seed for bonsai.

I may try seedling cuttings for some of them depending on my germination success rate. I’m not sure that I am completely sold on the need to do cuttings. You get a uniform radial root spread but that is part of the problem. Dan Robinson told me not to, specifically because of this. There was also just an article on Bonsai Tonight about this very subject.

A seedling cutting with too many roots

Good luck.

 

[nip]

I’m starting some pine from seed this spring as well. In my case it is pitch pine, pinus rigidia. I was going to start some black pine as well but purchased some 1 year old bare root seedlings instead. They were fairly cheap and I figured I would not have to worry about seeds germinating. I wanted to start some pitch pine because I believe that they are not utilized enough and to my knowledge no one is starting them from seed for bonsai.

I may try seedling cuttings for some of them depending on my germination success rate. I’m not sure that I am completely sold on the need to do cuttings. You get a uniform radial root spread but that is part of the problem. Dan Robinson told me not to, specifically because of this. There was also just an article on Bonsai Tonight about this very subject.

A seedling cutting with too many roots

Good luck.

Nice idea with the pitch pine, I've also wanted to try to grow some local pines I spotted (possibly pitch) from seeds but I always seem to forget about seed collecting when fall rolls around. Did you collect your seeds or purchase them?
I agree about the cuttings method, it can be counter productive. It does have some advantages for smaller pines, but I personally do not think the results are worth the trouble.

 

[jeanluc83]

I got the seeds from DA Tree Store. The price wasn’t bad and shipping was fast.

For the most part it is an experiment of mine. Out of the 100 seeds I got and I hope to get 10-20 good seedlings to start training. I figured I would keep my expatiations low. I don’t know what I’ll do if they all grow.

 

[sikadelic]

I may try seedling cuttings for some of them depending on my germination success rate. I’m not sure that I am completely sold on the need to do cuttings. You get a uniform radial root spread but that is part of the problem. Dan Robinson told me not to, specifically because of this. There was also just an article on Bonsai Tonight about this very subject.

A seedling cutting with too many roots

Good luck.

Thanks. I read that when it was published and was a bit puzzled. I guess the concern is that they look unnatural when they are so uniform?

I assume I could adjust the root spread manually and make a couple of gaps here and there to prevent too much uniformity.

 

[sikadelic]

Looking for more help this evening as I noticed some issues with my small seedlings. I had a few die last week and now several more are looking rough. It appears as though it starts with yellow tips, then they curl up, and the seedling no longer supports its own weight. Too much water?

I have tried to capture detailed photos below. They are planted in a variety of substrates as I was trying to see which one was best. I used 3 types of soil: 100% pool filter sand, turface fines, and my normal mix of turface, pumice, and pine bark. It seems that I am seeing the same issues with all 3. I had been misting them daily and heavily misting the bases every other day or so. Prior to Friday, they had been under a dome full time with a heating pad. I removed both after my post above asking for guidance.

They are now on my front porch out of wind and direct sunlight.

 

[cmeg1]

That is the discouraging thing about seed,always buy 300 more seeds than you need.I grew them from seed and I found sterile seed mix works best and I always put it full sun from germination,at least before you do the seedling cutting.I never did seedling cutting.Pines can really damp off.All the air and sun as possible. I hope this does not discourage you from seed.I grow zelkova from seed every season.Pines for seedling cutting will do best in a seed flat or bonsai pot planted an inch apart until you do seedling cutting,then they go in separate pots.That way you have the room to germinate way more and choose the best with good needle.

 

[sikadelic]

I'm definitely not discouraged and was honest with myself when I started, expecting a low success rate. I hope to have a few make it so this year won't be a complete bust. I only ordered 42 so I may have set myself for failure.

 

[tmmason10]

I think in the book it says to spray fungicide to keep them from damping off. I would use some daconil.

 

[sikadelic]

Well hells bells....I'm a little annoyed but also grateful for the experience and learning early on. I had never heard of damping off and will be sure to prepare appropriately next time. While effective, it makes me question the use of the dome next time.

I read an article about using hydrogen peroxide so I just gave them a treatment of 1/4 cup to 32oz. of water and sprayed them. I also sprinlked a tad (scientific measure) of cinnamon to also help. Maybe I can get 1 or 2 out of this batch...lol.

Also, my wife is watching the country music awards so maybe I'll get some action tonight. (Ya gotta find some humor where you can)

Thanks guys.

 

[nip]

Definitely looks like damping off. Some daconil will help, but less moisture is the best way to combat it... and some sun! Next year your success rate will be much better.

 

[Smoke]

Also, my wife is watching the country music awards so maybe I'll get some action tonight. (Ya gotta find some humor where you can)

Thanks guys.

Action? What the hell is that?

 

[cmeg1]

Yea,they actually have a good germination rate,I had high success when germination was at the time it is safe to plant vegetables.I just planted in sterile seed mix In several bonsai pot about an inch apart.In full sun.Once the stems wood up a tad they will survive.

 

[Thomas J.]

Action? What the hell is that?

Uh Smoke,
That's nothing you need to be concerned about. For your age it might be a bit much.

 

[coh]

Agree with the damping off/fungal problem being the cause of the seedlings collapsing. Probably too much warmth/moisture with the heating pad/misting/greenhouse cover. I would try the fungicide and also keep them drier (uncovered, no misting).

I started Japanese maple seedlings this year...I've got about 15 going and so far (fingers crossed), no losses. I pre-sprout the seeds in damp sphagnum in the fridge, then plant in bonsai soil once the root tips show. they are outside in partial sun, uncovered. In the garage at night as it still gets below freezing outside. I don't know if pine seeds/seedlings need to be treated differently, have never tried those.

Chris

 

[sikadelic]

Agree with the damping off/fungal problem being the cause of the seedlings collapsing. Probably too much warmth/moisture with the heating pad/misting/greenhouse cover. I would try the fungicide and also keep them drier (uncovered, no misting).

Chris

I agree. I think it was probably most likely the dome that did me in. My fingers are still crossed that I'll get 3-4 out of this batch. if not, ill just order 100 more and try again. It's still early in the year.