JBP in the ground, how far north?

Umeboshi

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I would like to put some Japanese Black Pine in the ground in zone 5b. I read varying hardiness for JBP, some say 5 some 6 or 7. Does anyone in zone 5 have JBP in the ground? Any issues?
 

Dav4

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I grew them in zone 6 MA for years without an issue...the landscape and potted trees saw below 0 F more then a few times. I've heard they are hardy in the ground to zone 5 but are very susceptible to wind burn so placing them out of the prevailing winter wind is a good idea.
 

Umeboshi

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I grew them in zone 6 MA for years without an issue...the landscape and potted trees saw below 0 F more then a few times. I've heard they are hardy in the ground to zone 5 but are very susceptible to wind burn so placing them out of the prevailing winter wind is a good idea.

Thanks, I will give it a try in a protected spot.
 

Vance Wood

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I live in the Detroit environs about 150 miles South of Mike. Years ago I used to work at Franks Nurseries and at that time we sold JBP for landscape purposes. Franks also had a one year guarantee and they were always replacing JBP's that had winter killed. So---they replaced their sales of JBP's for Austrian Black Pine and the problem disappeared----at least that one disappeared.
 

M. Frary

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To touch a little on what Vance posted.
Just because something is available at a nursery doesn't mean it will thrive in your area. The same nursery had a bald cypress also.
 

Umeboshi

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Good stuff to think about. At the very least they will be marginal here. I might try anyways, definitely with nothing more developed than seedlings so I am not risking anything.
 

Dav4

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Good stuff to think about. At the very least they will be marginal here. I might try anyways, definitely with nothing more developed than seedlings so I am not risking anything.
I'd give it a shot. I have a JBP I purchased at NEBG years ago that was supposedly field grown in southern ME. Sited appropriately, I think you'll be successful.
 

Vance Wood

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You can grow them in more Northern climates if you are willing to protect them through the winter, keeping them covered so they don't warm up too early and so they are not desiccated by the cold winds.
 

Txhorticulture

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Your question shows why the usda hardiness zone classification system doesn't really work.

First. I doubt in the long run it would prove to be hardy. By long run I mean decades. It might be fine for years but an especially bad winter will come along eventually. Hardiness zone is just an average of annual low temperatures. So if your lows are typically around 0 degress or just slightly below then it may be fine for a long time but if your average low is zero then what's a outlying really low temperature? -20? It's just a matter of time before a winter like that comes along.

For example my usda zone is either 8b or 9a. I don't remember a winter where the lowest temp was below the high teens. But 100 years ago it got down to zero supposedly and could again in theory. So if the other posts are right and somewhere a few degrees below zero is where these things tend to croak (I don't know if that's true or not) then I would feel confident saying it's truly zone 8 hardy maybe 7. But probably not colder than that.

The problem is someone will observe the plant survive a certain temp. Someone else looks at usda hardiness chart and says that temp is in zone 6 and starts saying it's hardy to zone 6. (In other words he or she forgets it's an average) another problem is that nursery just wants to sell trees so they usually tend to err on the side of 'this plant is suitable for you go ahead and buy it'. And finally the issue is further complicated by the fact that it's not always just reaching a certain low temp that kills the tree. Usually here when we dip below freezing it is for hours at a time, maybe a day or so around that temp. In a different zone 8 say in the pnw they get down to the same temp but stay there long enough for the ground to freeze which makes a big difference.

So even with respect to cold hardiness (which is the only thing the system is supposed to do) the system fails because my zone 8b isn't the same as someone elses.

Anyway probably more than you wanted to know.
 

Txhorticulture

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I would add one more thing, the real test is whether or not there are any one examples of the species around where you live. By old I mean 30 years or more. If not there are only 2 possibilities 1) no one tried unlikely with JBP or 2) they tried and it died.
 

Vance Wood

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What surprises and, may I say, troubles me, is how some really smart and obviously educated people, can only come up with reasons why something cannot be done and seem void of ways, or interest in finding, ways they can be done. Sorry but that is the message that is being sent here.
 

Txhorticulture

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What surprises and, may I say, troubles me, is how some really smart and obviously educated people, can only come up with reasons why something cannot be done and seem void of ways, or interest in finding, ways they can be done. Sorry but that is the message that is being sent here.

Sorry If that sounds negative but the poster was asking if they could keep this tree in the ground. It's a big tree. Short of constructing a conservatory around it there is not much you can do. It is either hardy there or it isn't. :(

Of course he or she could still have a JBP bonsai once they figure out how to store it over the winter

Otherwise try a Scots pine. I wouldn't recommend planting a tree that may survive for a few years only to get big enough that it's difficult to remove when it does die

Most of us who have an interest in gardening go through a phase of wanting things that don't work for us. I did. Ultimately it's more rewarding to choose things you will be successful with. The other day a new poster in my state of Texas was asking if he could grow larch. I think they are pretty trees, always have, but there is just no way.

If you want to take a chance on something that's fine, but still better to do so with realistic expectations. Anyway good luck
 

coh

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I know Don Blackmond told me he has no trouble with them in southwestern Michigan. I'm not sure if he is in zone 5 or 6 (he might get some protection from Lake Michigan). He said the biggest problem he has with them in his location is damage from heavy snow loading. Here in the Rochester NY area, I've been told they are hardy but I don't know if I've ever seen any in the landscape. Austrian pines were mass planted some years ago and now they are all being attacked and killed by borers and various fungi. It's sad to watch.

Anyway, I would suggest the original poster should give it a try and see what happens. Not clear to me if he wants these to be permanent landscape trees or if he wants to just put them in the ground for a while to build up size for later bonsai use.
 

Txhorticulture

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If Michael Dirr says it's a zone 5 tree, it's hardy below -10 F. The trees I grew saw temps of -8 F several times without damage.

I never claimed to know what minimum temperature they die at. I was going on the in formation in the thread. BUT surviving -10 does not mean it is hardy zone 5. Not even close. Look at the attached image even in zone 5b the average low is between -15 and -10. So if -10 is its limit even an average winter could kill it. A cooler than average winter in 5b would definitely kill it. And a once in century and a very bad winter, tor even the kind you get every 20 , 30, 50 years... you get the idea. If it's truly zone 5 hardy it needs to be able to withstand not an average low temp but the outlying low temp.

Otherwise, you end up with a tree that could do great for 20 years grow to a substantial size die in a terrible winter and fall on your house.

And now my question is this (and I don't know the answer) is there any reason to expect JBP to be this hardy? It's from coastal Japan right? It's replaced at altitude by p. densiflora and then higher up by p. parviflora. I don't think it would see bitter cold temperatures in its habitat. Am I wrong?
 

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Dav4

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I know how the usda zone classification works, and I'm pretty sure Michael Dirr does as well. As you say, it's based on averages , not extremes. Jbp is classified as zone 5 as it is solidly cold hardy to -15 f. It will probably not survive -20 unless it's incredibly well sited, but it's still a zone 5 tree because it will survive a typical zone 5 winter...and fwiw, bald cypress are coastal trees that can survive in zone 4...go figure.
 

coh

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It would probably also depend on the "type" of -20...if you get a clear cold night and the temp drops to -20 for an hour or two without wind, it might be OK. But several -20 nights, or a -20 night with a lot of wind...maybe not so much.

The guy is going to try seedlings...if they make it, fine. If not, not much is lost.

Otherwise, you end up with a tree that could do great for 20 years grow to a substantial size die in a terrible winter and fall on your house.

I highly doubt a JBP is going to grow large enough in 20 years (in a zone 5 climate) to be a threat, even if it were to be killed in a severe winter. And if it does, you cut it down before it falls. Big deal!
 
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