JBP in the ground, how far north?

[Vance Wood]

How we hang onto our pontifications as though out very lives hang on them. Been there done that.

 

[rockm]

FWIW, I had a JBP bonsai in an 20 inch long five inch deep pot that I left out unprotected on the bench for something like 15 winters here in Zone 7 Va. During that time, temps hit zero and below a few times. Single digits into the low 20s a lot for months on end. Never repotted it. Root mass was like cement. Damn thing wouldn't die. I finally donated it to a neighbor of mine for him to torture.

 

[Vance Wood]

Did he kill it yet?

 

[rockm]

Nope. As far as I know the stupid thing is still living. Buying it in the first place was a mistake. Not a real great tree design-wise.

 

[Arcto]

I have JBP here, ones a corker, posted on Fred's corker thread. The locals tell me we get -10 to 15 on avg here in the winter. A few years ago it got down to -34. I plan on mulching them but good and covering with frost blankets if the snow cover isn't too good. Next spring I may post pics of green or brown ones or a combination.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

warning: Cork bark JBP in my personal zone 5 experience are no where near as frost hardy as the straight or normal forms of the species. I lost many (more than 5) cork bark JBP over the last 20 years until I started protecting them from temps colder than +25 F. It might be that they were grafted, might be their more southern origin, it might be the physiology of the cork bark mutation. They might take colder than +25, but they certainly have not survived zone 5 winters for me. Had success once I resigned myself to protecting them.

second: Grafted trees take up to a decade for the graft to be fully fused and stable. Young grafted trees, 2nd or 3rd year can have the graft unoin destroyed by freeze thaw cycling.

I have had 2nd year JWP grafted on JBP killed by relatively mild winters. Protect grafted trees in winter until you are confident the graft union is complete, at least 5, sometimes upwards of 10 years, and some poorly done grafts never completely fuse enough.

I have had Mikauwa JBP seedlings in one pot survive -17 F and another pot of seedlings from the same batch, just a foot away died totally. Over 20 years of JBP experience, and I will say in zone 5 you can do seedlings and young plants in the ground, but they are 'marginal', site selection has to be good.

Last: one should look up how USDA Zones are determined before going on about it. They are NOT based on average Temps. The zone rating is based on the coldest observed temperature at a given location over the last 20 years. If one night in 20 years is below the minimum of the bracket for zone 6, then that location is considered zone 5. (the time interval could be 25 years, I haven't checked either it is human to speak before verifying ).

 

[Arcto]

Thanks Leo. My corker was moved from the Williamette valley where we grow them soft and flabby. It did arrive here last April and was exposed to a few nights in the upper teens. It came through it ok and right now appears healthy. I will respect your warning, especially because it was just wired and I don't want to put any more stress on the graft. I'll seek a more protected site for it this winter.

 

[Txhorticulture]

How we hang onto our pontifications as though out very lives hang on them. Been there done that.

Jeez I'm not pontificating anything. I was just saying how you can't rely on usda hardInes zones and most people dont really get it. I have no idea what temperature kills JBP I said that. But someone suggested slightly below zero - that is not zone 5. And Dav4 and Michael dir say zone 5 - and btw personally if something dies even at -20 it AIN'T zone five hardy. Many parts of zone 5 could get colder than that in a bad year.

I'm skeptical until I see it. The species shouldn't be that hardy and probably isn't. Show me a big ass JBP in the ground in zone 5. Something that's been there for 30, 40, 50 years.

 

[Txhorticulture]

ast: one should look up how USDA Zones are determined before going on about it. They are NOT based on average Temps. The zone rating is based on the coldest observed temperature at a given location over the last 20 years. If one night in 20 years is below the minimum of the bracket for zone 6, then that location is considered zone 5. (the time interval could be 25 years, I haven't checked either it is human to speak before verifying ).

I'll look it up I haven't in a long time. And even if youre right 20 or 25 yrs not long enough

 

[Txhorticulture]

They are in fact averages wise ass

http://www.farmanddairy.com/top-stories/understand-usda-hardiness-zones/241508.html

 

[Dav4]

Thanks Tex, you've been very helpful. Based on what you're saying, I should only plant or keep trees hardy to zone 5 where I currently live in zone 7 b GA, as the all time low- probably measured once in the last century, was -14 F...give me a break....

And Michael Dirr spent his entire professional career researching things such as zone hardiness...do you even know who he is?

 

[Umeboshi]

I have Dirr's propagation bible, I probably should have started there. I think what really helps is the snowfall layer. For the most part, the trees will be well buried during the coldest section of the winter.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Thanks Tex, you've been very helpful. Based on what you're saying, I should only plant or keep trees hardy to zone 5 where I currently live in zone 7 b GA, as the all time low- probably measured once in the last century, was -14 F...give me a break....

And Michael Dirr spent his entire professional career researching things such as zone hardiness...do you even know who he is?

I do and have one of his books. And if you're planting a tree that wouldn't survive the lowest temp recorded in the last 100 years you should know that it's a least possible it could grow well for many years only to die in a bad winter it could die next winter for all we know. That's the good thing about native plants. They have endured your climates conditions for thousands of years.

If the original poster wants to plant a JBP in new Hampshire that's fine. I am only trying to be helpful and saying MAYBE it isn't hardy. And if it were he would see one around ... at an arboretum, botanical garden, neighbors yard....

There are plenty of pines that would be fine there including scots which I mentioned which is similar. I'll stand by my advice.

Anyway I'll leave it at that and wait for pictures of these majestic old zone 5 JBP.

 

[Djtommy]

If that much in doubt, you can always just do JRP, they look very much alike but more hardier

 

[M. Frary]

If that much in doubt, you can always just do JRP, they look very much alike but more hardier

Or better yet. Try a Scots pine.
Less expensive than the Japanese pines.
Back buds reliably.
Tough. No worrying about cold. Ever. Take any of the zone 5 winters.
Shorter needles after a while.
Easier to find.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Txhorticulture, - you are right about the determination of USDA climate Zone. From you Dairyland link I went to the USDA site itself, and indeed you are correct. My recollection was faulty, and what bothers me I was sure I was right. my apologies. I will have to 'fact check' myself in the future.

 

[Txhorticulture]

@Txhorticulture, - you are right about the determination of USDA climate Zone. From you Dairyland link I went to the USDA site itself, and indeed you are correct. My recollection was faulty, and what bothers me I was sure I was right. my apologies. I will have to 'fact check' myself in the future.

Nah man I'm sorry. Shouldn't have let it upset me. I wasnt trying to discourage this person just help. Everyone gets touchy here if you say something that could even be interpreted as a slight against jbp.

Or better yet. Try a Scots pine.
Less expensive than the Japanese pines.
Back buds reliably.
Tough. No worrying about cold. Ever. Take any of the zone 5 winters.

Thank you. I think I mentioned this more than once. I've read people in cold climates often substitute scots for JBP. Shoot I'd love to be able to grow scots pine but it's too hot here. There are dozens of cutivated forms. And it's from Scotland in the highlands where it gets plenty cold, not coastal japan. Scots pine is supposedly zone 2 hardy.

And finally this dude is in new Hampshire. There are so many great conifers that will do perfectly. Plant a fir tree. People all over the country would love to be able grow abies but can't because it wants a cold climate.

 

[Txhorticulture]

And if you're sold on getting a pine how about pinus albicaulis or pinus aristAta? Both are beautiful pines I'll attach some pics. Or pinus mugo.

 

[LanceMac10]

Hey, dude from Man Hampshire!!

Check out Shin-Boku gardens in Wentworth NH.
Granted, it's huge landscape stuff, but you can get a better picture of materials that can handle the winters around here!!
Really, check it out, massive Japanese styled garden specimens......HUGE.....

Anyways....put the things in the ground, protect as best you can, and learn something. Not much to lose, I suppose....
Does get cold though....

 

[Umeboshi]

I do grow other pines, JWP, JRP and a few Ponderosa pines but I have found over the last few years or so that I enjoy JBP more. Scots might be a good choice but I ask about JBP because I like working with them... but ultimately as many of you are hinting at, you need to grow what works in your area.