JBP Next Steps

[CrisisM0de]

Picked this JBP at a recent bonsai show in MI. I have several others, but nothing that is this far along and I was hoping to get some clarification on what my next steps might be; I'd sure appreciate it!

My first question is, what is up with the branch circled red? It looks different than the others and the bud is very small. It is the center branch in the whorl, is this a result of prior decandling? Speaking of the whorl, I assume I need to lose two of these branches, am I right to think these branches are 'C' and 'D' ? I notice 'C' has more buds than the other branches. I do not know if this was going to be a leader?

Lastly, am I right to think that I should decandle 'A' and 'B' if I wanted to keep this tree small? I also considered having the branches continue to flow off in the direction the tree is moving, but in this case: I would NOT decandle?

I hope this makes sense. Thank you for your help!

 

[Mike Westervelt]

As always, "it depends" do you want a big tree or a small tree?

The lower trunk movement (very nice) suggests a small tree in which case allowing branches to flow away from the base looks incongruous.

The red branch looks to have been cut back past a candle I would suggest removing it completely as it's already too thick and has few needles down low.

Next, reduce/thin needles to balance strength between A, B and D, then decandle these three, all the candles, even little ones, then I would strip all the old needles off of C and let it run as a sacrifice.
You could do a little wiring to spread things out a bit but don't go crazy bending things heavily at this time of year.

However! if you want a bigger tree, it needs to be in a bigger pot, and in that case I wouldn't decandle anything, let it rip all year, then in the fall reduce to 2 equal sized shoots, selective prune, needle thin
for balance, and then you can wire the branches to give them movement that mimics/compliments that cool trunk.

Still leave the topmost branch (assume this is C?) as a sacrifice branch.

 

[Shibui]

Red circle branch is the centre candle so usually stronger and may have grown a second small flush last summer to give these patches of needles and odd shape. I don't think it is anything unusual to worry about. Most likely will be removed at some stage anyway.

There are many possible ways to follow with a young tree like this.
Assuming A,B,C,D and red circle all coming from the same whorl. So many branches will thicken at the whorl and look ugly. Need to remove at least for now and longer term only keep 2 at any point.
I can't see the branches well so hard pick best options but I'd probably remove C and D now. Keep red circle for a few years as a sacrifice to thicken the trunk faster then remove completely in a few years. A becomes new trunk and B becomes a branch. You may see that other combinations look better (I note you've picked B and C on one pic) or have better natural bends or line so choose any one as new trunk, any one as branch (usually shorter) and one as sacrifice (optional if you want more rapid trunk thickening)

Decandling this season is not necessary this year. Decandling is a maintenance technique used on well grown pines. Use different techniques for pines that are still developing.
Allowing branches to grow unpruned will certainly thicken the trunk below an branches can be chopped back any time provided they have healthy needles so you can allow free growth this year and chop harder next year and still get good budding to start secondary branching. This is development pruning as opposed to maintenance pruning (including decandling)
You could decandle this summer and get immediate new buds and start ramification a year earlier but forgo some trunk thickening.

 

[MSU JBoots]

Thanks for the advice in this thread. I bought a similar tree (with less movement )from the same event that will require this same development.

 

[Backwardsvg]

How is JBP do in MI? I hear they arent the best this far north unless you do a lot of special care. How have you found it?

 

[MSU JBoots]

How is JBP do in MI? I hear they arent the best this far north unless you do a lot of special care. How have you found it?

Not sure as I just acquired it. I’ll have to let you know in a couple years hopefully it’s still alive.

 

[CrisisM0de]

Sorry I've been absent from my own post!

@Mike Westervelt I am definitely planning a small tree and the route you suggest makes sense to me. It is safe to remove this branch at the same time as needle reduction and decandling?

Here it is today, I think I wait another week or two before cutting and needle pulling? You suggest even cutting the very small buds - (3rd image, circled red)



@Shibui I know people often advise to allow growth for trunk thickening, but I am confused how this would work while creating shohin. It seems like you simply have to decandle at some point, even when they are seedlings? Unless I am very confused. For example, these trees in the images below (from eBay, NOT my trees)...certainly these have been decandled at least 3 times? Maybe more? I am very interested in finding out more about the process here.

 

[CrisisM0de]

@MSU JBoots @Backwardsvg These are black pines from Julian Adams. The larger ones I got two years ago or, and the 4 small ones last last fall. 3 more seedlings and some older ones are on the way this week. They've all seemed perfectly happy and healthy. The small ones even survived the hack job I gave them, I can see some roots growing down.

I put them in a tote in the winter and cover them in mulch, garage as it starts to warm up and the temp bounces around, and then out.

Yes, the wiring is AWFUL... they've even survived that. It'll be prettier next time.

 

[Mike Westervelt]

Yes, even the small ones with the exception of small interior ones like the one one circled in blue, these are important to let get stronger

 

[sorce]

Those circles in Blue would be my only concern.

If you don't make this decision soon, it could be too late fast.

Since that back branch is better for your alternating branches, I'd ditch this one, since it's bout to strong anyway.


All the facing branches have nice downward sweeping movement then. You could hide any difficult bringdowns of the back branch, and let some ride up to fill space.

Everything after the first bud (abc and d)after the last sweep up should be considered sacrifice.

Those weak branches are proportionally at a perfect start size.

Everything in that canopy is already too thick IMO.

Attempt as compact as possible, and if it doesn't pan out, you can grow everything you are concerned about now with one bud and a couple years, with a taper bonus of course.

Sorce

 

[CrisisM0de]

@sorce Strong branch on the back as well, do I lose this one?

I thought I should not decandle until the needles emerge a bit further? I have to go back through Bonsai Tonight articles and Julian Adams Pine book should be here tomorrow.

I was hoping I'd be able to keep the front two branches of the whorl - A , B - and sort of wire them to the left and back up over the trunk I thought I'd probably chop the rest off this winter. You're saying this entire whorl should be chopped? This horrifies me I am too new to see what the tree might then look like I guess, where I'd even start again with it.

 

[sorce]

I wouldn't chop anything for at least 4 years.

You can also put decandling out of your mind until all those low (plan A for me) branches get healthy enough for....what may be a need for backbudding then, a closer in division than decandling would get you.
About midway between "decandling" and the 4 year wait on the sacrifice growth.

If this purple one is new to our vision....

That "strong back branch" is the "new apex", that first bud passed the sweep I was looking for.

I'd just leverage that wired bit low as you can, if you can get it lower than the rest, the rest will want to be dominant and grow stronger.

You can thin that sacrifice into a cascade for plan B as it aids in Repot health and the building of the more compact tree.

When Plan A is a complete tree, then chop off the sac, only when the rest is so healthy it can't die when cut.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Too....

When you do chop the sacrifice, you may get brand new branches at all these small old branch places, which could be much better utilized in a proportional design with close forking, cuz they will be new and full of vigour.

I would actually hope for that, it will be a much better tree.

Always try to build the tree with what the future will provide, what is currently present is rarely good enough.

Faster Further Future Vision.

Sorce

 

[CrisisM0de]

@sorce Thank you for your help. A lot to process. You mentioned I have to decide real fast, bonsai fast as in a few weeks, or regular fast like a few days?

My new trees came from Adams today, partly trained for shohin, I am very excited. Do you agree about bringing the long branches to the left and right as far down as possible and decandling? I suppose it seems I am in a rush to decandle, I'm not, I'm just worried the branch gets away from me I guess? It seems better to decandle these and start developing the branch because I want them to stay quite small?

Do you have suggestions for these two?

 

[sorce]

You are going to keep yourself in your namesake until you start buying Mugos!

I think this picture illustrates the crucialness of timing, which can be more easily applied to the first tree, since that top straight Wang doesn't have a good small branch you need to keep. You only have to cut that first tree before the wound, or evidence of an old branch becomes too great.

This red cut needs to happen much sooner, since once the base is too large, it will never make sense as a first segment of this small branch, that is still in proportion with the tree.


The problem then becomes finding branches smaller than it, or still small enough further up. The yellow is a good size, but a bad position.
The green is a good position, but a wee large, perhaps ditching one fork tine and skinning the other to be just alive can prompt smaller close useful growth.
In building correctly from the bottom up, you must accept the challenge of making that little branch your first, nothing else is in proportion.

The mass of the purple makes me want to chop that off.

The thing about decandling is, it only causes forking at that point. It is never enough energy removal to cause backbudding near the trunk. It is the energy left at ALL the branch tips, and everything else closer being decandled as well, that makes "finished" trees keep budding closer in.

In your position of having inches of naked start on unforked branches, if there is any hope of getting buds on that naked part, you gotta have a lot more energy making buds want to happen, before any cutting will spark popping.

There's the catch-22. All that energy on a branch already out of proportion is just wasting your time.

Your out is that wee branch.

Just remember it's not loserportion, hobbyistportion, moronportion, uneducatedportion, greenportion, lazyportion or ignoportion....

It's Pro....portion!

Proportion is to thinking as Taper is to the Physical.

Think proportion over everything.

Study the large overgrown tops of yours or any trees and see what should have been done to keep it smaller and rightfully proptioned, with your thicker more forked branches low and thin stuff high.

Every tree in this small stature grows exactly opposite of how we need it to, we are only here to correct for that.

If it means counting needles and leaving 100 in the first branch, 80 on the next, 60, 40, 35, 89, and 2 to keep it tight.....
How do you accomplish this while accounting for proper close forks and good structure?

Start with the new growth already present.

Even if you have to remake the entire tree from that small red cut branch, you will have been in full control the entire time, which makes for excellence, bitchin taper, and pretty much whatever you want.

The most difficult thing is overcoming others lack of attention.

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

@Shibui I know people often advise to allow growth for trunk thickening, but I am confused how this would work while creating shohin. It seems like you simply have to decandle at some point, even when they are seedlings? Unless I am very confused. For example, these trees in the images below (from eBay, NOT my trees)...certainly these have been decandled at least 3 times? Maybe more? I am very interested in finding out more about the process here.

You are correct that ramification needs to start earlier for shohin sized trees. The catch is that pruning of any sort, even decandling will reduce thickening but will enhance branch ramification. These are the dilemmas of shohin and make good shohin bonsai more difficult and more valued than similar larger trees. It can take more years to develop a good shohin bonsai than to grow a good larger tree.
You will need to manage a combination of growth and decandling to speed up development while still maintaining good growth for good shohin. I've been trying to manage selected sacrifice branches while controlling the parts I require for the bonsai. Does not always work but seems to be the best course I've come up with so far.

Timing of decandling does appear to vary from place to place according to climate. Here the term is a misnomer as needles are well out by the time decandling time arrives here so we are actually pruning advanced shoots in early summer. You should get advice from local growers on appropriate timing for best results.