JBP Pre-Bonsai Potential

[CrisisM0de]

I recently ordered this JBP from House of Bonsai. I have not touched it as I am not exactly sure what I am supposed to do. I would like to try to make it into shohin, but I am curious what potential others might see as I am still learning. It would be very helpful to hear what experienced people would do and why. My understanding from reading is that I would probably want to bend the trunk much more drastically for shohin and the first set of branches would likely be the tree and everything above it sacrifice? It looks like they did an amazing job working with the tree already. It does look like all the buds were reduced to just one, which I thought was not good? Does this mean that in the spring I will decandle the branches I want in the end so that a new cluster of buds forms where there is now only one?

I am in West Michigan and it has been quite hot. I know that I should not wire until late autumn. It looks like bud selection was done already. Is there anything I am able to do now or is it a waiting game? I planned to move it into a pond basket in the spring.

I have been reading and I have been watching videos, but it is sooo much to take in. I don't want people to think I just want easy answers, I just want to know what others might do with this and why.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Ahem....... Most unprepossessing tree. Do not bother wiring as not much there worth keeping/waste of time. Suggest cutting off just above 2nd pair of branches. Use bottom branch to develop new trunk, remove left branch of upper pair and grow remaining one as sacrifice to enlarge trunk. Late Winter(late Feb-late March)replant into larger grow box to allow free growth of sacrifice. Please add location to profile for better advice. If terms unfamiliar just ask.

 

[CrisisM0de]

Ahem....... Most unprepossessing tree. Suggest cutting off just above 2nd pair of branches. Use bottom branch to develop new trunk, remove left branch of upper pair and grow remaining one as sacrifice to enlarge trunk.

Haha is it that bad? This is why I ask, I thought I was starting to understand things a little better.

I was curious about the bottom branch as it has 3 or 4 rings of needles that are spaced out. From my understanding, I could cut back to any of these and stimulate dormant buds? I was curious as to why they took the care to grow it out that long over the years. By develop new trunk do you mean thicken the current one by leaving that branch on?

 

[Potawatomi13]

I was curious about the bottom branch as it has 3 or 4 rings of needles that are spaced out. From my understanding, I could cut back to any of these and stimulate dormant buds? I was curious as to why they took the care to grow it out that long over the years. By develop new trunk do you mean thicken the current one by leaving that branch on?

Not necessarily. For now keep whole branch or might just wind up with dead one. Low branch and sacrifice branch will be all tree has left after major cut back. After late Winter repot fertilize well give good sun see what back buds appear and allow to grow before shortening this low branch. Actually begin fairly heavy fertilizing NOW as new buds can be set still this year. Personally use recommended potted plant dose 2 times/week. May take another year. Patience grasshopper. After horticultural skill is most important lesson. As to branch grow out it was just a matter they did not much care. Usable trunk is the part below first branch. Straight section between 1st and 2nd branch is part of sacrifice to remove later. This tree is project in building new tree from poor beginning subject. Appearance seems to have new branch or two near base of low branch? This may be future of new tree.

 

[Housguy]

In time it could be something nice, but you do need to put into the ground or something bigger and plan out that sacrificial branch like Potawatomi13 mention above.

 

[CrisisM0de]

Not necessarily. For now keep whole branch or might just wind up with dead one. After repot fertilize well give good sun see what back buds appear and allow to grow before shortening it. As to grow out it was just a matter they did not much care. Usable trunk is the part below first branch. Straight section between 1st and 2nd branch is part of sacrifice to remove later. This tree is project in building new tree from poor beginning subject.

I understand, this is disappointing! Can you explain why it isn’t worth the time to bend the trunk back and down, using the first pair as the top of the tree?

 

[Shibui]

This pine is typical of mass produced pines. The growers want a quick return so they allow them to grow freely to get size. That's what sells but is not always the best for future bonsai. The long trunk and long branches are what has given the tree the thickness it currently has. Pruning also takes time and adds to the cost so pruning is generally kept to a minimum in trees for quick sale.
I agree that the bonsai is in the first few branches but I would leave the main trunk as a sacrifice branch for as long as it does not set back those vital low branches. Take a few side branches off it so the lower ones get plenty of sun. Maybe wire it away from the rest as well but it will definitely add some thickness to the lower trunk in the next few years.

I was curious about the bottom branch as it has 3 or 4 rings of needles that are spaced out. From my understanding, I could cut back to any of these and stimulate dormant buds?

These sets of needles are from successive years of growth. Each spring the candles elongate before needles open. Usually there is a bare section at the base of each shoot and needles at the end. You can see that clearly on that lowest branch. You can also see that it is 2 or 3 years old. On most black pines you can recognize this growth pattern and count back the years of growth from the tip.
You can usually prune back to any of the healthy needles and expect new buds to grow from the needles you retain. Pines rarely back bud without pruning in my experience.
Need to be aware that needles only have a 3 year life so the lower ones will probably die and drop next summer. If you want shoots down there that branch must be pruned before mid summer next but I can see some smaller shoots right at the base. Those are probably far more useful as future branches that the current longer one so even it could be allowed to grow long as another sacrifice branch.
It is a long road ahead to bonsai for this tree but you have started with a cheaper starter rather than a more expensive advanced tree with immediate potential.

 

[sorce]

I am not convinced they removed buds, it could be that weak.

Is this from Ohio or California?

Stick with Mugo!

Sorce

 

[CrisisM0de]

I did notice today that there about 7 buds around the first pair of branches, that seems good?



@Shibui I was hoping that I was getting something great being that it wasn't a box store I bought from. Thank you for clarifying the growth of the pine more for me! I was hoping I could still bend the heck out of it like the black pines he works on at Bonsai Tonight. I see you did mention wiring it out more, but it sounds like you are thinking more for light then for shape. I'm still curious as to why I cannot achieve something similar to this:



I am definitely not arguing or anything because you all know far better than I do!! I just want to understand why this isn't a viable option. I am also curious about where I might look to purchase better starting material?

@sorce This tree is from Cali. It sounds like weakness is more likely than anyone doing bud selection! I do have a mugo, I think I found a good one at a nursery with a nice thick trunk, but I don't really see where the tree is in it. Mr Wood said he would have picked the tree up also, but I didn't ask many questions because I didn't want to bother him - I figure he gets messages all day. I did trim it a bit and planned to move it to a colander in the spring and then maybe wait until the next spring for anything else.

 

[River's Edge]

I recently ordered this JBP from House of Bonsai. I have not touched it as I am not exactly sure what I am supposed to do. I would like to try to make it into shohin, but I am curious what potential others might see as I am still learning. It would be very helpful to hear what experienced people would do and why. My understanding from reading is that I would probably want to bend the trunk much more drastically for shohin and the first set of branches would likely be the tree and everything above it sacrifice? It looks like they did an amazing job working with the tree already. It does look like all the buds were reduced to just one, which I thought was not good? Does this mean that in the spring I will decandle the branches I want in the end so that a new cluster of buds forms where there is now only one?

I am in West Michigan and it has been quite hot. I know that I should not wire until late autumn. It looks like bud selection was done already. Is there anything I am able to do now or is it a waiting game? I planned to move it into a pond basket in the spring.

I have been reading and I have been watching videos, but it is sooo much to take in. I don't want people to think I just want easy answers, I just want to know what others might do with this and why.

Proper assessment requires some information.
What is the current diameter of the trunk at the base?
Picture of the root structure.
Pictures of the lower movement if any.
Based on what you have shown so far it is a sapling that has had no work other than reducing whorls to two opposing branches. The other observation is that it is reasonably healthy with apical buds but no secondary growth! Typical of a two to three year old tree, or an older tree with a slower growth pattern.
Dimensions are critical in determining whether you have something to work with or years of work to do to develop material to work with.
Pine pre-bonsai should show an abundance of lower branching, developed nebari and movement in the lower design portion of the trunk.

 

[Adair M]

You can wire it and bend it if you like. Try to put the branches on the outside of the curves.
This tree needs to grow. So, all the stuff like decandling do not apply! Put some movement in, set the major branches, and let it grow.

 

[CrisisM0de]

Proper assessment requires some information.
What is the current diameter of the trunk at the base?
Picture of the root structure.
Pictures of the lower movement if any.
Based on what you have shown so far it is a sapling that has had no work other than reducing whorls to two opposing branches. The other observation is that it is reasonably healthy with apical buds but no secondary growth! Typical of a two to three year old tree, or an older tree with a slower growth pattern.
Dimensions are critical in determining whether you have something to work with or years of work to do to develop material to work with.
Pine pre-bonsai should show an abundance of lower branching, developed nebari and movement in the lower design portion of the trunk.

I cannot find tape measure but the trunk is certainly under an inch... I would guess between 1/2 and 3/4 inch. Should I remove some of the top soil and look for the top of the root structure? I can take pictures of that if that is the right thing to do. Can you explain what secondary growth is? Thank you

 

[River's Edge]

I cannot find tape measure but the trunk is certainly under an inch... I would guess between 1/2 and 3/4 inch. Should I remove some of the top soil and look for the top of the root structure? I can take pictures of that if that is the right thing to do. Can you explain what secondary growth is? Thank you

Here is a picture of a pre bonsai pine from my nursery. The tree is 6 years old, base is 2 1/2 inches. almost all of the original branches at each whorl have been removed as new shoots were developed from back budding on the trunk or sacrifice branch. Pre Bonsai receive initial root work to help form better nebari each year for the first three or four years. Also at this time the trunk is wired for movement and extension growth of sacrifice branches and leaders is encouraged. The result is a Pre Bonsai with lower branching, movement, nebari and potential for design options. Secondary growth as I am referring to is the smaller branches and shoots developed for design as opposed to the initial growth pattern of the tree. Rarely is a tree developed from the initial growth. In order to introduce taper and other design elements such as node length, bifurcation one must encourage and use secondary growth.
This is just a tree I grabbed for an example this morning. Not suggesting it is the best or finest by any stretch. Just wanted to illustrate some of the comments I made earlier.


Your tree is young and beginning development. To make the most of it, I would repot this spring. Do corrective or improvements to the root ball to help structure the nebari. Then plant in the ground or grow box for several years to gain trunk caliber and develop foliage for design purposes. I would wire the trunk for movement next fall after the tree has had time to recover from the root work.
keep in mind that the beginning of design is usually after the trunk caliber has been largely attained. Even in the case of a Shohin I would recommend a minimum of 1 1/2 inch base. For larger pine design I suggest a minimum of 3 inch base, allowing the height of the design to suggest elegance or power.
Do not be discouraged by those who preach only growing in the ground, very nice powerful pines can be developed in grow boxes with the proper care.

 

[CrisisM0de]

Here is a picture of a pre bonsai pine from my nursery. The tree is 6 years old, base is 2 1/2 inches. almost all of the original branches at each whorl have been removed as new shoots were developed from back budding on the trunk or sacrifice branch. Pre Bonsai receive initial root work to help form better nebari each year for the first three or four years. Also at this time the trunk is wired for movement and extension growth of sacrifice branches and leaders is encouraged. The result is a Pre Bonsai with lower branching, movement, nebari and potential for design options. Secondary growth as I am referring to is the smaller branches and shoots developed for design as opposed to the initial growth pattern of the tree. Rarely is a tree developed from the initial growth. In order to introduce taper and other design elements such as node length, bifurcation one must encourage and use secondary growth.
This is just a tree I grabbed for an example this morning. Not suggesting it is the best or finest by any stretch. Just wanted to illustrate some of the comments I made earlier

Your tree is young and beginning development. To make the most of it, I would repot this spring. Do corrective or improvements to the root ball to help structure the nebari. Then plant in the ground or grow box for several years to gain trunk caliber and develop foliage for design purposes. I would wire the trunk for movement next fall after the tree has had time to recover from the root work.
keep in mind that the beginning of design is usually after the trunk caliber has been largely attained. Even in the case of a Shohin I would recommend a minimum of 1 1/2 inch base. For larger pine design I suggest a minimum of 3 inch base, allowing the height of the design to suggest elegance or power.
Do not be discouraged by those who preach only growing in the ground, very nice powerful pines can be developed in grow boxes with the proper care.

@River's Edge Thank you for further explanation. Do you have any pre bonsai available and do you ship? I did search for roots a bit and they seem to be at least another inch down in the soil, which puts the first pair of branches higher than I had originally thought or hoped. If I understand correctly though, I'm more likely to use what are currently back buds in the future rather than anything that is currently on the tree?

I didn't go any further because I don't want to cause any damage. Is there any benefit to removing soil until I can see the top of the root structure? I did take closer pictures of the trunk, not nearly as much movement as I expected; I kind of feel like it is not as it was described on the site I purchased from.

 

[River's Edge]

@River's Edge Thank you for further explanation. Do you have any pre bonsai available and do you ship? I did search for roots a bit and they seem to be at least another inch down in the soil, which puts the first pair of branches higher than I had originally thought or hoped. If I understand correctly though, I'm more likely to use what are currently back buds in the future rather than anything that is currently on the tree?

I didn't go any further because I don't want to cause any damage. Is there any benefit to removing soil until I can see the top of the root structure? I did take closer pictures of the trunk, not nearly as much movement as I expected; I kind of feel like it is not as it was described on the site I purchased from.
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The current size and apparent age of the tree determines the time still needed to further develop. I know that reasonably good quality pre-bonsai pine are available in California for $125 to $175 the last time I visited. Older more advanced material is available in the $300 to $500 range. There are good nursery's in Washington and Oregon as well. Other forum members could undoubtably recommend something closer to your location than I could.
I do not know what the market is for the size you have purchased. If the tree is healthy and you picked it up for less than $40 or $50 then that is what I would expect.
Because it is a young pine with supple trunk you can easily improve the movement, work on the root structure and develop additional foliage options over time with the proper techniques!

I have several hundred JBP and JRP pre-bonsai under development. I do not ship trees.
My nursery operates on an appointment only basis for referred clients and the general public can visit during one or two open houses per year.
The operation is small scale, designed for the local Canadian market. Import/Export permits , phytosanitary certificates and shipping to the United States would make the cost of my pre bonsai product unreasonable.

 

[Adair M]

@River's Edge Thank you for further explanation. Do you have any pre bonsai available and do you ship? I did search for roots a bit and they seem to be at least another inch down in the soil, which puts the first pair of branches higher than I had originally thought or hoped. If I understand correctly though, I'm more likely to use what are currently back buds in the future rather than anything that is currently on the tree?

I didn't go any further because I don't want to cause any damage. Is there any benefit to removing soil until I can see the top of the root structure? I did take closer pictures of the trunk, not nearly as much movement as I expected; I kind of feel like it is not as it was described on the site I purchased from.
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Chris, contact Mark Comstock for quality starters if JBP. He’s located in Old Lyme, Connecticut. He does business under the name of Kingsville Nursey or Kingsville Growers, or something like that. He has JBP starters by the thousands!

if you’re going to grow something out, it should start with a great root system and low branches. I guarantee Mark’s starters will be amazing! (Not cheap! But amazing!)

 

[Mike Corazzi]

From what is available locally,I think most mugos dream of becoming wagon wheels.

 

[SeanS]

Here’s a 3 year old seedling intentionally grown for future shohin for comparison. Started as a seedling cutting with movement put into the lower trunk early on and lots of low buds and branches.

 

[Shibui]

I did search for roots a bit and they seem to be at least another inch down in the soil, which puts the first pair of branches higher than I had originally thought or hoped. If I understand correctly though, I'm more likely to use what are currently back buds in the future rather than anything that is currently on the tree?

I didn't go any further because I don't want to cause any damage. Is there any benefit to removing soil until I can see the top of the root structure? I did take closer pictures of the trunk, not nearly as much movement as I expected; I kind of feel like it is not as it was described on the site I purchased from.

Deep roots is also typical of mass produced trees. It is easier to just bang a little tree in the bottom of a larger pot and fill it with new mix than to tease out all the roots and plant properly. Cheap trees are generally cheap trees.
Before committing to any design you really need to see the roots. There's no point designing a great tree only to find the trunk is longer than expected. There's no point designing a great tree only to find the root you thought was the nebari is actually one lone root well above the other laterals. Summer is not really the best time to be exploring the root system. You won't usually worry the tree just removing the surface soil or even cutting a few small roots now but to get a really good look you will need to remove a bit of the surface soil. While you are at it you might as well sort the roots and trim properly. The time for that is spring so I would just put this one aside, feed, water and plan until then.

As others have mentioned you can wire and shape if the urge takes you. There is no one way to grow bonsai and many beginners are quite happy with sticks in pots as bonsai. If you are happy with a thin pine bonsai with no taper and no ramification you can start now. If you plan to grow a real quality pine bonsai that will take some years. A couple of months now is nothing compared to the years you will hopefully spend on this tree.

I assume the term secondary growth refers to the smaller branches that grow from the main branches. A good bonsai will have primary (main) branches from the trunk that divide and divide into secondary and tertiary branching so it looks like a real tree with branches, sub branches and tiny twigs.

 

[leatherback]

Were this mine, and in your situation, I would plan on using the lowest branch as the future tree. You can work that part of the tree, slowly developing ramification and structure. The top you keep. You let it run tall. This is just a sacrifice which in 3-5 years you will cut off. This spring you repot to get the plant in better substrate & bring the nebari towards the surface.

This is a starter plant. This means you have a bunch of growing to do. but that is what bonsai is about too!

Wiring the tree and working with the branches you have now will in the long run irritate you probably: The trunk is too thin to give a realistic feel of a tree. Naturally, you can develop a tree from the current branches and also let a sacrifice run to increase girth. I am afraid that the branches are too far apart to look good on the long run.