JBP Progress (Help with Design)

[pga7602]

Been working with this pine for a few years now. The APEX is obvious, but I'm unsure of which of the two left branches to use as the first branch. It's hard to see the in the photo, but the difference is that the branch behind the one you see is just that.. 1/4 inch more toward the back. Help?

My other question is if I should move the APEX as illustrated? Thanks guys.

 

[pmalelis]

Maybe leave the new leader as is but in the future perhaps just a change in planting angle. How was this tree started out of curiousity, looks like you have done well so far. Any resources you would recomend?
Pete

 

[HumbleTrees]

trying to load a pic of my opinion...

My main thought would be to not use either on the two branches you have pointed out. Use instead the second bud on the main branch(the one that your text box on the right is covering). Using the other two will put your foliage so far from the trunk.

Also, the apex: are there any bud you could use between the main trunk and the first shoot you have your question mark on? Again, using a bud closer to the base would eliminate the long leggy taperless section you currently are thinking about using.

I will post the photo as soon as BNUT cooperates.

 

[pga7602]

Maybe leave the new leader as is but in the future perhaps just a change in planting angle. How was this tree started out of curiousity, looks like you have done well so far. Any resources you would recomend?
Pete

I started this one like the one one the right side of this pic. Actually the one on the right already has some some work done to it to increase bottom growth, but you get the picture. Just typical nursery stock and slowly working them for a few years.

 

[pga7602]

trying to load a pic of my opinion...

My main thought would be to not use either on the two branches you have pointed out. Use instead the second bud on the main branch(the one that your text box on the right is covering). Using the other two will put your foliage so far from the trunk.

Also, the apex: are there any bud you could use between the main trunk and the first shoot you have your question mark on? Again, using a bud closer to the base would eliminate the long leggy taperless section you currently are thinking about using.

I will post the photo as soon as BNUT cooperates.

A photo would be perfect Humbletrees. Thank you. For the Apex, I was just pointing out the start of it.. I would def be choosing the third part of the trunk line on a lower branch. There are bud breaks all over the section you are mentioning. I am encouraging even more options by pushing the growth down. So basically, you are saying not to bend the apex, but to cuts to shape it back toward the middle correct?

 

[HumbleTrees]

I cant upload photos....

If you use the right branch as you apex you'll have to bend it. But I don't think you want that section as your trunk since it has no taper. if there is a bud that will grow the direction you want the new leader to go then develop that bud and bend it to shape your apex.

Another thought would be to use the shoot that is growing at the base of the right branch as a new leader, bend the right branch down to use as your second branch. The right branch is a bit thick though. The left branch would need to be beefed up, while slowing the vigor of the right to make them proportional.

Use the buds closest to the trunk for your final branches and foliage. Use the long branches you have as sacrifice branches(which is what I think you're doing).

Disclaimer: I'm a noob as well.

 

[pga7602]

I cant upload photos....

If you use the right branch as you apex you'll have to bend it. But I don't think you want that section as your trunk since it has no taper. if there is a bud that will grow the direction you want the new leader to go then develop that bud and bend it to shape your apex.

Another thought would be to use the shoot that is growing at the base of the right branch as a new leader, bend the right branch down to use as your second branch. The right branch is a bit thick though. The left branch would need to be beefed up, while slowing the vigor of the right to make them proportional.

Use the buds closest to the trunk for your final branches and foliage. Use the long branches you have as sacrifice branches(which is what I think you're doing).

Disclaimer: I'm a noob as well.

Yes, 50 percent of what you see in the photo will be cut off. I don't plan to have "final" foliage until maybe 10 years from now? One cut at a time, creating a trunk line and a branch.

 

[pga7602]

Bump.. was really hoping for more opinions. Thanks.

 

[fraser67]

Sometimes it's tough to get opinions...
I don't have a lot of experience for sure but...I'd like to see a couple other photos. Honestly, I don't care for the angle you posted...it's tough to get a read on the tree.
Best,
Jonathan

 

[nathanbs]

I recommend that one of the young branches below the white box named option 1 should be your new apical leader and eventually cut off everything on the right side once the trunk has reached a desired thickness. Be wary of too large of a scar

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Or use the first bud (that seems to have 1 pair of needles) on the right branch as the new apex, and the first branch is the first bud in the left branch.

Either way, those small interior buds we're all talking about need a full year to grow, then we can start to discuss viable options between final branches and sacrifice branches.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I'm no expert, but you have a lot of options. My next step would be trim out your sacrifice growth so that it isn't shading these interior buds. The arrows in the left are your sacrifice and the ? on the right and it's partner should be removed to let some more light in.

 

[Chiang Cheng Kooi]

i would check the spreading of the root first n determine the best part to be the front,

 

[fore]

Or use the first bud (that seems to have 1 pair of needles) on the right branch as the new apex, and the first branch is the first bud in the left branch.

Either way, those small interior buds we're all talking about need a full year to grow, then we can start to discuss viable options between final branches and sacrifice branches.

Brian, what time of yr. do you remove the needles of the sacrificial branch?

 

[nathanbs]

i would check the spreading of the root first n determine the best part to be the front,

unfortunately with conifers you often have to take what you get. This is not a formal upright tree where all aspects of the trunk can be equal and therefore you choose the best front based on roots. Roots/nebari can always be developed as you go. This tree has a very strong trunkline that will dictate the front in my opinion

 

[iant]

Nice looking start to a JBP! I would probably not use the left branch as the first branch. I'd probably make one from one of the very low buds on the new leader. It would put it a little higher and draw a little more energy through the 2nd trunk section which will help heal the first chop. Alternatively you could just keep it as a sacrifice as well. If you do use the left branch as a first branch then you want to try to keep it from getting too big in caliber while you're developing the rest of the trunk line so I'd just use one of the very low buds on that branch as the branch and work to get ramification while keeping it from getting too large. I think the angle is just fine. There's lots of choices there.
Ian

Disclaimer: The above opinion is based on my knowledge of bonsai which comes from reading actual physical books as well as physical magazines along with internet based material. I have approximately 12 yrs experience in bonsai but only 3 years working with JBP. I own 4 JBP that are at a similar stage (Hachi Gen from Brent.) I do not have experience having done everything I've suggested and do not have photos showing that it's been effective.

 

[nathanbs]

Here is a quick drawing of what i had in mind. The first branch on the right does not currently exist and if desired would likely require grafting

 

[pga7602]

Or use the first bud (that seems to have 1 pair of needles) on the right branch as the new apex, and the first branch is the first bud in the left branch.

Either way, those small interior buds we're all talking about need a full year to grow, then we can start to discuss viable options between final branches and sacrifice branches.

Thanks for the tips. I do not plan to work on it anymore this year. Can you confirm that I have it right in my picture what you are suggesting? My question is for the first branch. Since it's a new bud of the thicker branch, do I need to slow down that entire large branch to prevent a bulge later on?

Thanks in advance.

 

[pga7602]

Here is a quick drawing of what i had in mind. The first branch on the right does not currently exist and if desired would likely require grafting

View attachment 41778

I like this idea as well. It's a slower process, but would give me the tree I want. Thanks for the drawing!

 

[MidMichBonsai]

I started this one like the one one the right side of this pic. Actually the one on the right already has some some work done to it to increase bottom growth, but you get the picture. Just typical nursery stock and slowly working them for a few years.

With these, it looks like you are growing out the entire top rather than just 1 sacrifice branch. Is there a reason for that. Also, it looks like you plucked many of the needles on some of leaders up high. Is it better to give full foliage to the top while doing this? The reason I ask, it seems like there are 2 competing theories:
1. grow out sacrifice branch/branches with all foliage to grow as fast and as strong as possible to thicken the trunk and barely keep the lower foliage that will eventually be in the final design alive. or...
2. grow out sacrifice branch but needle pluck on it which will slow the growth, but give more balance to the future tree foliage and allow more light to get to it but slow the trunk growth.

Thoughts?