JBP styled by Ben Oki

buffrider

Mame
Messages
116
Reaction score
0
Location
oklahoma
I was given this JBP from one of my bonsai buddies who is trying to get rid of his trees cause he is going down hill in health. All i have to do is a lil work around his house. Its a 60+ year old JBP. My friend got it back in 1999 from Ben Oki who styled it. Its my first mature JBP so im a lil scared to work on this awesome tree. Ill be getting the sketch that Ben drew for this tree what he thought it should look like in the future. Point me in a good direction please and also tell me what yall think.
I think i got the pictures the right size.
 

Attachments

  • Six.jpg
    Six.jpg
    69.7 KB · Views: 308
  • Three.jpg
    Three.jpg
    59.6 KB · Views: 245
  • Two.jpg
    Two.jpg
    47.7 KB · Views: 212

biglou13

Mame
Messages
105
Reaction score
2
Location
ne florida
I’d be proud to own it. NICE tree. Great feet, mature bark, look like some taper and movement.

It looks a little leggy, and will need to be chased back

When was last repot, or any work done?

Can you get better images more interior, and/or different angles?

Do you have experience with JBP?

Would need more info along with sketch for better direction. And see sketch. (if still compatible with current tree)

2nd branch on left is to thin compared to higher branch right.

I’m sure more qualified will advise.

In mean time, keep it healthy. Feed it well. Occasional shot or iron wont hurt. Don’t handle trunk. Did I say feed it well.

Depending on last repot, 1st priority in spring.

If repot is ok? I’d cut back all of this years growth (if not more) this fall to induce back budding in spring.
 

buffrider

Mame
Messages
116
Reaction score
0
Location
oklahoma
I’d be proud to own it. NICE tree. Great feet, mature bark, look like some taper and movement.

It looks a little leggy, and will need to be chased back

When was last repot, or any work done?

Can you get better images more interior, and/or different angles?

Do you have experience with JBP?

Would need more info along with sketch for better direction. And see sketch. (if still compatible with current tree)

2nd branch on left is to thin compared to higher branch right.

I’m sure more qualified will advise.

In mean time, keep it healthy. Feed it well. Occasional shot or iron wont hurt. Don’t handle trunk. Did I say feed it well.

Depending on last repot, 1st priority in spring.

If repot is ok? I’d cut back all of this years growth (if not more) this fall to induce back budding in spring.

Ill find out when he repoted last. Here are some pics of the inside, top, and back.
 

Attachments

  • CIMG1153_1.jpg
    CIMG1153_1.jpg
    97.5 KB · Views: 120
  • CIMG1154_1.jpg
    CIMG1154_1.jpg
    100.4 KB · Views: 121
  • CIMG1161_1.jpg
    CIMG1161_1.jpg
    99.1 KB · Views: 130
  • CIMG1155_1.JPG
    CIMG1155_1.JPG
    130.4 KB · Views: 212

buffrider

Mame
Messages
116
Reaction score
0
Location
oklahoma
oh and i dont have much experience with JBP but im learning and really want to get it all second nature. I really like JBP so i really want to learn. My buddy has decandled in the spring and then again in the fall and has had this tree since 1999 so ill keep with the same way that he had been doing on this tree. I have other prebonsai JBP to do other ways on but what aint broken on this tree doesnt need fixin so yea.... lol. but still let me know what you would think would help.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
11,732
Reaction score
31,640
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Congrats. The last photo looks to be the front. IF it was mine:

1. Remove all of this year's candles (can you tell where they begin? Ask if not). The growth seems balanced enough to do it on one shot.
2. Feed it heavily; i.e., full-strength dilution rate of fish emulsion weekly; I use about 1/3c per 5 gal bucket of water, plus cakes.
3. Give it ALL DAY sun.
4. Photograph it with this year's candles removed and post.
5. On repotting...if water still drains through it well, do not bother repotting next year. When you get pines to this level, 90% of repotting is to replace old soil.
6. Apply copper fungicide as a preventative measure against needlecast as the new buds are growing.
 

yamins

Yamadori
Messages
54
Reaction score
0
Location
Long Island, NY, USA
USDA Zone
7a
Brian -- you recommend to apply copper fungicide as new buds are forming. E.g. (for those tree that have been candled) around now.

I have also read other places that some fungicides, e.g. lime sulphur could hurt forming buds. Is it that copper doesn't hurt young buds, while lime sulphur does?
 

biglou13

Mame
Messages
105
Reaction score
2
Location
ne florida
even better than i thought!!!

lots of styling options.

+1 on front.

brian would you pinch it back now or wait till fall?

i'd prune back upward growing portion on second branch. (timing up for discussion) makes for single apex. im assuming wired portion is apex.

i agree its healthy however, i'm questioning how vigorous, since no evidence of second bud break.

how are you watering? chopstick method? trees in finished pots have greatly different needs than training pots.

while i do occasionally go organic, my mainstays are (less expensive) miracle grow, miracid, osmocote. along with occasional foliage misting.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
11,732
Reaction score
31,640
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Brian -- you recommend to apply copper fungicide as new buds are forming. E.g. (for those tree that have been candled) around now.

I have also read other places that some fungicides, e.g. lime sulphur could hurt forming buds. Is it that copper doesn't hurt young buds, while lime sulphur does?

I just have had better luck controlling needlecast with copper than lime sulfur. It hasn't hurt newly forming buds on any pines for me over the last 2 years since I switched to it, and I tend to go slightly heavy, and use it about every week or two starting in June.

@ biglou: I'd do it all now. The close-ups show the needles are a little spaced out along the candle...not enough sun, not enough food, or maybe a little too much water, but the color seems good.
 

buffrider

Mame
Messages
116
Reaction score
0
Location
oklahoma
Ok so the wired part is a back branch. The apex is from the from leaning toward you. Just alot of candles that i will get rid of this fall. He decandled once this spring and planed on doing it again this fall.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
11,732
Reaction score
31,640
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Ok so the wired part is a back branch. The apex is from the from leaning toward you. Just alot of candles that i will get rid of this fall. He decandled once this spring and planed on doing it again this fall.

You asked to be pointed in a good direction...

No disrespect intended to the individual who grew this pine, but it really doesn't look like a pine that was grown properly over the last 12 years since Mr. Oki turned over it's care. John Naka advocated a spring candle-cutting, but it's also important to understand what the previous owner meant by "decandling"...especially when done in the spring and again in fall. Done wrong, it's very hard on pines, because in the fall, you're removing the buds set for spring, and it forces the tree to push advantageous buds (from between needles) in the spring instead. These buds are usually immature in form, not as straight, and not as strong.

If you remove all of this year's candles now, it will set smaller, mature candles this season, each with buds at the tip that will be strong in the spring and set you up to repeat the process. If you wait until fall, you're forcing the tree to start over each spring, keeping it in a weak state.
 

jk_lewis

Masterpiece
Messages
3,820
Reaction score
1,109
Location
Western NC
USDA Zone
7-8
I hope you belong to a bonsai club. If so, I'd suggest you take it to a meeting. Perhaps someone there has more experieince with thse pines. On line help is fine, but can become confusing.
 

buffrider

Mame
Messages
116
Reaction score
0
Location
oklahoma
You asked to be pointed in a good direction...

No disrespect intended to the individual who grew this pine, but it really doesn't look like a pine that was grown properly over the last 12 years since Mr. Oki turned over it's care. John Naka advocated a spring candle-cutting, but it's also important to understand what the previous owner meant by "decandling"...especially when done in the spring and again in fall. Done wrong, it's very hard on pines, because in the fall, you're removing the buds set for spring, and it forces the tree to push advantageous buds (from between needles) in the spring instead. These buds are usually immature in form, not as straight, and not as strong.

If you remove all of this year's candles now, it will set smaller, mature candles this season, each with buds at the tip that will be strong in the spring and set you up to repeat the process. If you wait until fall, you're forcing the tree to start over each spring, keeping it in a weak state.
Well y does Naka suggest this? I know boon says to do it now but y would others say this other way.
 

buffrider

Mame
Messages
116
Reaction score
0
Location
oklahoma
Yea I'm part of the club here. They all say decandle now but I'm just trying to learn why my friend and John Naka says to decandle in the spring and then again in the fall.
 
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
13
Location
Ottawa, KS
USDA Zone
6
John Naka lived in Southern California. Ernie Kuo advocates that as well but in most of the country, we candle at the end of June/early July, then pull needles and remove extra new buds in fall.
 

buffrider

Mame
Messages
116
Reaction score
0
Location
oklahoma
John Naka lived in Southern California. Ernie Kuo advocates that as well but in most of the country, we candle at the end of June/early July, then pull needles and remove extra new buds in fall.

Well the thing is that this tree has been done this way since seed. I've talked to my other club members and they do the decandleing in the spring then again in the fall. But I'm 25 so I got time to experiment. Since this tree has been done this way since the begging and it is going strong I'll stick with it on this one.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
11,732
Reaction score
31,640
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Well y does Naka suggest this? I know boon says to do it now but y would others say this other way.

Several reasons, his SoCal climate is one, cutting the candles (step 3 below) means the internodes are cut to a length you determine, but it is an older technique. As I mentioned, some clarification on what is meant by "decandling" will help this. The technique you're referring to is illustrated in Naka's "Bonsai Techniques II" book, pp 231-234, read this for a better understanding.

1. It states to remove all candles over 1" long in the spring. By the illustration, it is clearly before the needles begin to appear along the candle. In my climate, it looks like mid-April.

2. A month later, reduce the resulting buds to a pair (ideally, they'll be at the 9:00 and 3:00 positions) of candles, and let them grow.

3. In the fall, SHORTEN (not remove entirely) these 2 candles so that only a few pairs of needles remain. The cuts are made horizontally, cut-side up.

4. In the following spring, new buds appear between the needles that were left in Step 3.

5. Repeat the process.

In my opinion, this stresses the tree twice a year at critical times; once when that spring flush is removed, and then again when the candles are shortened in the fall, removing next year's buds. This also forces the grower to work with weak growth. Summer candle-pruning only stresses the tree once, but it's after the new growth has had a month or more to "charge up the batteries" first.

Does this make sense?
 
Last edited:

Thomas J.

Chumono
Messages
507
Reaction score
1,015
Location
DFW area
USDA Zone
7
It would be to your advantage to listen to what Brian and others are saying here. These trees are put under a lot of stress to keep them looking good and proper, anymore stress would be doing a disservice to the tree and years down the road you might regret doing the way you thought was right. I've only been doing JBPs for four years. Before that In all the years of doing bonsai I had never taken a class or a workshop with anyone and my trees were mostly all of show quality. The day I decided to get started in JBPs my first thought was if I'm going to do this correctly I will need to finally need to get some help and take some classes. I had to somewhat lower my pride and finally learn from someone who knew more than me.

Now I'm not saying that you have a pride issue at all, but since these trees are new to you, certainly you would want to learn the correct way. Remember, different parts of the country dictate different times to do various tasks with your trees and especially JBP. So. Cal and Fla. are places where what you decscribe is possible, but in these parts it's best to do only one candle pruning a year. Your friend might have taken his instructions thinking it was alright to do it the So. Cal way but really shouldn't have.

Just trying to help here so I hope you don't take anything personal.:cool:
 
Last edited:

buffrider

Mame
Messages
116
Reaction score
0
Location
oklahoma
well i apreciate all the help yall. the problem ive had is i have people who know more then me telling me to do this BUT the person i trust the most is my bonsai teacher who has recently moved away so i havent been able to talk to him. He says he does the on decandle in the summer and removes needles in the winter.
So what am i going to do. Well i will do what has been done the rest of this year by decandling here in the fall and then pluck needles in the winter. I will then switch to just one decandle in late june/ early july from now on. Im always open for new ideas and always want to learn. Ill be posting it as it turns into something awesome.....
 

Similar threads

Top