JBP under development

[Adair M]

You think it's too tall now? It seemed more powerful when it was more squatty. Now it seems tall in proportion. The trunk just does not convey the sense of power it had shorter.

View attachment 236122

Turning it, and tilting it did produce more apparent trunkline. I have not readjusted the branches to correspond to the new potting angle.

However...(and I hate to bring this up again), your comment does support my claim that forward lean does affect the way we perceive the tree. I mean, the tree hasn’t grown any since the repot, but changing the angle of the trunk makes it appear significantly taller.

There is also a bit of a perspective change due to the new pot being a little bit deeper, and a lot less wide.

But, yes, I agree it does appear less powerful. But the movement is more interesting.

I’m not going to mess with adjusting the branches until I decandle since it was just repotted.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[0soyoung]

However...(and I hate to bring this up again), your comment does support my claim that forward lean does affect the way we perceive the tree. I mean, the tree hasn’t grown any since the repot, but changing the angle of the trunk makes it appear significantly taller.

Previously, I think you argued that having the top of the tree project more forward foreshortened the tree; i.e., made it seem shorter. If the view was such that the apex would be more of an eye poker, maybe so.

But, just as you photographed it, the apex projects more overhead from the correct viewing point and causes the exact opposite of foreshortening. The tree seems taller, the apical internodes longer.

QED
Thanks for the demo of it.

 

[Adair M]

Previously, I think you argued that having the top of the tree project more forward foreshortened the tree; i.e., made it seem shorter. If the view was such that the apex would be more of an eye poker, maybe so.

But, just as you photographed it, the apex projects more overhead from the correct viewing point and causes the exact opposite of foreshortening. The tree seems taller, the apical internodes longer.

QED
Thanks for the demo of it.

0so, maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say?

Which of the following two pictures makes the tree look taller?

Number 1:



Number 2:

 

[0soyoung]

The second.

...continue ...

 

[Adair M]

The second.

...continue ...

Ok, the difference in the potting angle tilted the tree back a little, so top portion of the trunk, the apex, which previously jutted forward straight at the viewer, is now directed more upward. In addition, while it still moves forward, I turned the entire tree counter clockwise about 1/8 of a turn, so that the upper trunk doesn’t come directly forward, it goes off towards the right. Making it visible. There’s less foreshortening in this new planting angle. Therefore, while the trunk is the same length it was previously, it is more visible. Thus making the tree appear taller.

 

[Shima]

Ok, the difference in the potting angle tilted the tree back a little, so top portion of the trunk, the apex, which previously jutted forward straight at the viewer, is now directed more upward. In addition, while it still moves forward, I turned the entire tree counter clockwise about 1/8 of a turn, so that the upper trunk doesn’t come directly forward, it goes off towards the right. Making it visible. There’s less foreshortening in this new planting angle. Therefore, while the trunk is the same length it was previously, it is more visible. Thus making the tree appear taller.

Such a stark difference. Almost two different trees.

 

[0soyoung]

Ok, the difference in the potting angle tilted the tree back a little, so top portion of the trunk, the apex, which previously jutted forward straight at the viewer, is now directed more upward. In addition, while it still moves forward, I turned the entire tree counter clockwise about 1/8 of a turn, so that the upper trunk doesn’t come directly forward, it goes off towards the right. Making it visible. There’s less foreshortening in this new planting angle. Therefore, while the trunk is the same length it was previously, it is more visible. Thus making the tree appear taller.

Now I think you've found the words so that we all agree about foreshortening/tilting/bowing. Maybe not, but I think we're on the same page about this.
Thx!

 

[Adair M]

Now I think you've found the words so that we all agree about foreshortening/tilting/bowing. Maybe not, but I think we're on the same page about this.
Thx!

Heck, no! It wasn’t the words! It’s the pictures! Lol!!!

 

[Smoke]

You would have to show me with a ruler. I'm not the smartest person in the world but there is something not the same in those two pictures. And it's not the tilt of the trunk. How much time has elapsed since each picture was taken. Put an arrow in the shoet tree to the apex and an arrow in the taller picture corresponding to that same point.


or....take the tall tree view and turn it back to the original view and lets have a view of that.....

 

[Adair M]

You would have to show me with a ruler. I'm not the smartest person in the world but there is something not the same in those two pictures. And it's not the tilt of the trunk. How much time has elapsed since each picture was taken. Put an arrow in the shoet tree to the apex and an arrow in the taller picture corresponding to that same point.


or....take the tall tree view and turn it back to the original view and lets have a view of that.....

Picture number 1 was last fall. November maybe?
Picture number 2 was this morning. The candles are just beginning to swell.

I did do a bit of light cutback when I repotted it about a month ago.

Picture 3:



Taken just now from the old potting angle.

The tree looks much fuller from this angle.

Like I said, I need to adjust all the branches and pads for the new potting angle. When I make pads, I try to make the longest twigs be the perimeter of the the pads, and the shorter twigs are used to fill in the centers and add height. The outer perimeter is the lowest level. Now with the lean-back, that front “lowest level” has been raised. Putting them on the same horizontal plane as the shorter, formerly higher fill in twigs. This makes my pads look flat, as in no height. I’ll tweak it later after the roots have had a chance to grow.

Edit: I went back and checked... Picture Number 1 was taken December 18, 2018.

 

[Thomas J.]

I think since the tree has been opened more foliage wise and the difference in the shooting angle which is apparently a bit lower than the first pic, does lend to the fact that the tree looks a bit larger. Probably more of an optical illusion than anything else. It does look like two different trees though.

 

[0soyoung]

Probably more of an optical illusion than anything else. It does look like two different trees though.

But optical illusions are a lot of bonsai art.

 

[Adair M]

I think since the tree has been opened more foliage wise and the difference in the shooting angle which is apparently a bit lower than the first pic, does lend to the fact that the tree looks a bit larger. Probably more of an optical illusion than anything else. It does look like two different trees though.

The foliage has not been opened up. I cut maybe two branches back when I repotted, and they were in the back, so you wouldn’t notice them.

The angle at which the tree is viewed makes all the difference.

Foreshortening IS an optical illusion!

 

[coh]

If you're not taking the photo from the same viewing angle with the same camera setting/zoom/etc...is it really worth even trying to make the kinds of claims you're making here? I mean, in this latest photo you're obviously looking down on the tree whereas in the one that looks taller, you're looking from a very different angle. How about providing a couple of side views
to show whatever lean is present?

Also, your original posts in this thread were from spring 2017, that's 2 growing seasons ago. How much of the change is related to branches that have been removed or grown out,
etc?

BTW, I hate to tell you but your taller version looks more "tree like" (don't deviate too much from the black pine bonsai ideal!) That last photo is probably closer to what most
people will see at a show as trees tend to be displayed too low and how many (other than us true bonsai junkies) get down on their hands and knees to look at trees from a different
angle?

 

[kalare]

Photo 1 seems to be taken from a bit further back and several inches higher than photo 2, most likely producing the optical illusion of a taller tree. Then you have the more open canopy and taller pot in photo 2...takes it further.

 

[Adair M]

If you're not taking the photo from the same viewing angle with the same camera setting/zoom/etc...is it really worth even trying to make the kinds of claims you're making here? I mean, in this latest photo you're obviously looking down on the tree whereas in the one that looks taller, you're looking from a very different angle. How about providing a couple of side views
to show whatever lean is present?

Also, your original posts in this thread were from spring 2017, that's 2 growing seasons ago. How much of the change is related to branches that have been removed or grown out,
etc?

BTW, I hate to tell you but your taller version looks more "tree like" (don't deviate too much from the black pine bonsai ideal!) That last photo is probably closer to what most
people will see at a show as trees tend to be displayed too low and how many (other than us true bonsai junkies) get down on their hands and knees to look at trees from a different
angle?

Chris, do you honestly think i’m trying to do some kind of trickery here? Really??? You’ve met me at the National’s. Twice. I have shown 4 full size trees at the Nation’s and a 6 tree shohin display.I didn’t get there by trickery.

Yes, Chris, the original post was from May, 2017. The picture in post 23, which I named Number 1 was taken December 18, 2018. Number 2 was taken this morning.

Do you think I would show a tree too low??? No, dammit, I would put it on a tall display table to elevate it to a proper viewing height!

Let’s think about what happens when you tilt a tree back. One that has a very pronounced forward lean. The apex moves away. The branch pads get tilted so that we now see the underside of the pads. The foliage we used to see that was tight in front gets moved up. The foliage that was the apex now is behind the new apex.

Now, let’s think about what happens when a branch that points directly towards the viewer is turned to the side. All the foliage you used to see dead on was compressed because it was all lined up. Once that frontal branch is turned, it separates! The stuff closest to the trunk can now be seen! It used to be hidden behind the foliage out on the end.

Now, let’s combine these two effects! Wow!!! It makes a huge difference!

I posted a thread about this tree some time last fall when I was wiring all my pines.

Geez... you need to remember that trees are 3 dimensional.

Smoke asked me to take a picture of the tree as if it were at the same orientation as before. I moved over to the old front. Since I had tilted the tree back, I had to move the camera towards the back to get the same angle.

I’ll take side shots if you want tomorrow. But, why don’t you go do some things with your tree to see how the view changes when you tilt your tree forwards, backwards, to the side, etc. you might actually learn something! I’m really annoyed with you! You’ve seen my trees in person, you know they’re far better than yours, yet you question everything I say! Why? Why are you so closed minded? I post photos to illustrate my points, and you think I’m trying to pull the wool over your eyes? Why would I do something like that?

I thought you guys come here to learn. I show Nationally. I win lots of Best-in-Shows. I teach bonsai professionally.

Yet you think I’m trying to deceive you? Really?

 

[coh]

Chris, do you honestly think i’m trying to do some kind of trickery here? Really??? You’ve met me at the National’s. Twice. I have shown 4 full size trees at the Nation’s and a 6 tree shohin display.I didn’t get there by trickery.

Yes, Chris, the original post was from May, 2017. The picture in post 23, which I named Number 1 was taken December 18, 2018. Number 2 was taken this morning.

Do you think I would show a tree too low??? No, dammit, I would put it on a tall display table to elevate it to a proper viewing height!

Let’s think about what happens when you tilt a tree back. One that has a very pronounced forward lean. The apex moves away. The branch pads get tilted so that we now see the underside of the pads. The foliage we used to see that was tight in front gets moved up. The foliage that was the apex now is behind the new apex.

Now, let’s think about what happens when a branch that points directly towards the viewer is turned to the side. All the foliage you used to see dead on was compressed because it was all lined up. Once that frontal branch is turned, it separates! The stuff closest to the trunk can now be seen! It used to be hidden behind the foliage out on the end.

Now, let’s combine these two effects! Wow!!! It makes a huge difference!

I posted a thread about this tree some time last fall when I was wiring all my pines.

Geez... you need to remember that trees are 3 dimensional.

Smoke asked me to take a picture of the tree as if it were at the same orientation as before. I moved over to the old front. Since I had tilted the tree back, I had to move the camera towards the back to get the same angle.

I’ll take side shots if you want tomorrow. But, why don’t you go do some things with your tree to see how the view changes when you tilt your tree forwards, backwards, to the side, etc. you might actually learn something! I’m really annoyed with you! You’ve seen my trees in person, you know they’re far better than yours, yet you question everything I say! Why? Why are you so closed minded? I post photos to illustrate my points, and you think I’m trying to pull the wool over your eyes? Why would I do something like that?

I thought you guys come here to learn. I show Nationally. I win lots of Best-in-Shows. I teach bonsai professionally.

Yet you think I’m trying to deceive you? Really?

Adair, man, you read a lot more into that post than was intended. Not sure how much of that was due to flaws in my writing versus previous history that might have skewed your
interpretation. I was not accusing you of deception, just pointing out that camera angles can make a big difference in how trees appear. We're talking about very small angles
here so it's possible that a relatively small chance in camera angle can lead to a significant change in appearance, potentially even as much as you would achieve by tilting the tree alone.

Now, if we assume that in this case the camera angle change wasn't that significant, that only leaves one conclusion - this must be one of those trees that has what I consider
to be a ridiculous amount of forward lean (or had in the old front view, but the lean will still be there). That's why I requested the side view because I wanted to see what that
looks like. Post it if you want or not, I don't have the energy right now to really care.

As for the end of your post, I won't really even address that. Too much condescension. All I'll say is we have different goals and desires when it comes to bonsai. You have better
trees than me? Let's add up all the money you've spent over the years purchasing trees and pots, going back and forth to Boon's, etc. You better have "better" trees than me!
So congratulations. See you in 2020.

 

[Adair M]

Adair, man, you read a lot more into that post than was intended. Not sure how much of that was due to flaws in my writing versus previous history that might have skewed your
interpretation. I was not accusing you of deception, just pointing out that camera angles can make a big difference in how trees appear. We're talking about very small angles
here so it's possible that a relatively small chance in camera angle can lead to a significant change in appearance, potentially even as much as you would achieve by tilting the tree alone.

Now, if we assume that in this case the camera angle change wasn't that significant, that only leaves one conclusion - this must be one of those trees that has what I consider
to be a ridiculous amount of forward lean (or had in the old front view, but the lean will still be there). That's why I requested the side view because I wanted to see what that
looks like. Post it if you want or not, I don't have the energy right now to really care.

As for the end of your post, I won't really even address that. Too much condescension. All I'll say is we have different goals and desires when it comes to bonsai. You have better
trees than me? Let's add up all the money you've spent over the years purchasing trees and pots, going back and forth to Boon's, etc. You better have "better" trees than me!
So congratulations. See you in 2020.

Some spent their money playing golf. Golf club membership is outrageously expensive. As are lessons, green fees, clubs, bags, vacations to play other courses, etc.

So, I spend money on bonsai. I’ve spent money on education about bonsai. I’m sharing it here. Why don’t you want to listen to what u have to say about what I’ve spent a good amount of money to learn?

I’ll take some pictures. It’s raining right now. Yes, the tree did have a ridiculous amount of forward lean. Which is why I’ve stood it up!

But, the over exaggeration of the forward lean illustrates my point of how forward lean can influence how we perceive the tree. If the forward lean wasn’t so dramatic, adjusting it it a little would not be so apparent. It would still have an effect that you could see in person, but it just wouldn’t show up in a photo.

And I’m sorry about my rant last night. I actually took great pains to try to take the picture from the same angle as I took it from previously. The way I do it is to step back away from the tree, then zoom in to fill the frame. I did the same process on all the pictures in this thread.

 

[Adair M]

Adair, man, you read a lot more into that post than was intended. Not sure how much of that was due to flaws in my writing versus previous history that might have skewed your
interpretation. I was not accusing you of deception, just pointing out that camera angles can make a big difference in how trees appear. We're talking about very small angles
here so it's possible that a relatively small chance in camera angle can lead to a significant change in appearance, potentially even as much as you would achieve by tilting the tree alone.

Now, if we assume that in this case the camera angle change wasn't that significant, that only leaves one conclusion - this must be one of those trees that has what I consider
to be a ridiculous amount of forward lean (or had in the old front view, but the lean will still be there). That's why I requested the side view because I wanted to see what that
looks like. Post it if you want or not, I don't have the energy right now to really care.

As for the end of your post, I won't really even address that. Too much condescension. All I'll say is we have different goals and desires when it comes to bonsai. You have better
trees than me? Let's add up all the money you've spent over the years purchasing trees and pots, going back and forth to Boon's, etc. You better have "better" trees than me!
So congratulations. See you in 2020.

Here’s the tree from the side:



As you can see, it has a pronounced forward lean, the front is on the left of this picture. And remember, this is after I stood it up! So, it used to have even more of a forward lean! (Which you just couldn’t see from a photo taken from in front of it.)

I will be adjusting the branches later in the year.

 

[james]

This is an awesome tree, optical illusion or not. I like the new planting position, more movement and taper. A couple of years with pads developed, this tree will be outrageously powerful. Nice job. Wish it were mine.

Now the kitchen, and your tree. Are you married? My wife would throw the tree, fertilizer bags and all out if a brought inside, pronto.