Jins/Shari on deciduous bonsai: opinions or examples?

just.wing.it

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hello mate. all the 'copy' videos are the same, but most of the audio had to be cut out due to youtube restrictions or something. i know they're not the same without the cool background music:)
I thought some of the copy videos had better resolution as well as the messed up audio.
 

AlainK

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I think if one wants to replicate whats seen in nature, then deadwood of all types is more than appropriate on deciduous trees.
... in Britain.

I mean, it's true I've seen quite a few oaks with dead wood in prairies in southern England, but these are rather unusual here in France. It's probably because where I live, the weather is dryer, in places with lots of fog, mist, rain and wind, any wound will rot down and expand, whereas in drier, warmer climates it will heal better. Just a thought.

But it hurts my sight to see systematic dead wood on deciduous, as if a deciduous tree was fatally sick. Dead wood, "uro" and "jins" may make a tree look "venerable", but I prefer when it looks "majestic" :cool:

When one or two deciduous trees in a dozen have dead wood, it can give them some character, when it's 10 out of 12, to me it's a boring trick. I prefer concentrating on how to make scars as less conspicuous as possible.

Even on conifers, it's not that common here : it's not windy, we aren't in the mountains or by the sea. See for instance this photo of a Cedrus libani I took a few days ago, some branches were broken by a tempest last year, yet, it retains the shape of a Libanese cedar, a bit like the one on the national flag.

bdl_190220.f.jpg

Other cedars and conifers at Chaumont-sur-Loire :
IMG_0144.JPG
IMG_0152.JPG

Even by the sea, where there are strong winds, you don't see that much deadwood, for instance, a seashore path on a cliff, the Quercus ilex (holm oak) are twisted, but any dead wood must have been erased by the elements :

IMG_1540.JPG

Anotrher photo from the same walk. Notice how the scars have healed, giving some "wabi-sabi", but the tree still looks strong and healthy.

IMG_1538.JPG

And, oh, one that I photographed thinking of you (yes, that's true!) a couple of years ago. The only tree in the park of a castle with dead wood. Can't remember the species, maybe a hornbeam, whose wood is very hard :

IMG_4224.JPG

The thing is "does it look natural" ?

If most trees in your area have broken branches and open rotten trunks, it's OK.

Most of them just don't look like that here ;)

But we've already had that kind of argument, and "de gustibus et coloribus non disputandum", so it's all right if you prefer that approach, as long as it makes nice trees to look at, the kind of potted tree that takes you to an imaginary landscape. My "ideal" landscape must be very conventional... :D
 

MHBonsai

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... in Britain.

I mean, it's true I've seen quite a few oaks with dead wood in prairies in southern England, but these are rather unusual here in France. It's probably because where I live, the weather is dryer, in places with lots of fog, mist, rain and wind, any wound will rot down and expand, whereas in drier, warmer climates it will heal better. Just a thought.

But it hurts my sight to see systematic dead wood on deciduous, as if a deciduous tree was fatally sick. Dead wood, "uro" and "jins" may make a tree look "venerable", but I prefer when it looks "majestic" :cool:

When one or two deciduous trees in a dozen have dead wood, it can give them some character, when it's 10 out of 12, to me it's a boring trick. I prefer concentrating on how to make scars as less conspicuous as possible.

Even on conifers, it's not that common here : it's not windy, we aren't in the mountains or by the sea. See for instance this photo of a Cedrus libani I took a few days ago, some branches were broken by a tempest last year, yet, it retains the shape of a Libanese cedar, a bit like the one on the national flag.

View attachment 228490

Other cedars and conifers at Chaumont-sur-Loire :
View attachment 228491
View attachment 228492

Even by the sea, where there are strong winds, you don't see that much deadwood, for instance, a seashore path on a cliff, the Quercus ilex (holm oak) are twisted, but any dead wood must have been erased by the elements :

View attachment 228493

Anotrher photo from the same walk. Notice how the scars have healed, giving some "wabi-sabi", but the tree still looks strong and healthy.

View attachment 228494

And, oh, one that I photographed thinking of you (yes, that's true!) a couple of years ago. The only tree in the park of a castle with dead wood. Can't remember the species, maybe a hornbeam, whose wood is very hard :

View attachment 228498

The thing is "does it look natural" ?

If most trees in your area have broken branches and open rotten trunks, it's OK.

Most of them just don't look like that here ;)

But we've already had that kind of argument, and "de gustibus et coloribus non disputandum", so it's all right if you prefer that approach, as long as it makes nice trees to look at, the kind of potted tree that takes you to an imaginary landscape. My "ideal" landscape must be very conventional... :D

What an excellent response, thanks. I think it's really interesting how we replicate trees from our surroundings. In Tennessee there is an abundance of broken tops, hollow trunks, dead wood, etc. On the old native trees.
 

BobbyLane

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What an excellent response, thanks. I think it's really interesting how we replicate trees from our surroundings. In Tennessee there is an abundance of broken tops, hollow trunks, dead wood, etc. On the old native trees.
ah, now i see where you get your inspiration from:cool:
 

BobbyLane

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... in Britain.

I mean, it's true I've seen quite a few oaks with dead wood in prairies in southern England, but these are rather unusual here in France. It's probably because where I live, the weather is dryer, in places with lots of fog, mist, rain and wind, any wound will rot down and expand, whereas in drier, warmer climates it will heal better. Just a thought.

But it hurts my sight to see systematic dead wood on deciduous, as if a deciduous tree was fatally sick. Dead wood, "uro" and "jins" may make a tree look "venerable", but I prefer when it looks "majestic" :cool:

When one or two deciduous trees in a dozen have dead wood, it can give them some character, when it's 10 out of 12, to me it's a boring trick. I prefer concentrating on how to make scars as less conspicuous as possible.

Even on conifers, it's not that common here : it's not windy, we aren't in the mountains or by the sea. See for instance this photo of a Cedrus libani I took a few days ago, some branches were broken by a tempest last year, yet, it retains the shape of a Libanese cedar, a bit like the one on the national flag.

View attachment 228490

Other cedars and conifers at Chaumont-sur-Loire :
View attachment 228491
View attachment 228492

Even by the sea, where there are strong winds, you don't see that much deadwood, for instance, a seashore path on a cliff, the Quercus ilex (holm oak) are twisted, but any dead wood must have been erased by the elements :

View attachment 228493

Anotrher photo from the same walk. Notice how the scars have healed, giving some "wabi-sabi", but the tree still looks strong and healthy.

View attachment 228494

And, oh, one that I photographed thinking of you (yes, that's true!) a couple of years ago. The only tree in the park of a castle with dead wood. Can't remember the species, maybe a hornbeam, whose wood is very hard :

View attachment 228498

The thing is "does it look natural" ?

If most trees in your area have broken branches and open rotten trunks, it's OK.

Most of them just don't look like that here ;)

But we've already had that kind of argument, and "de gustibus et coloribus non disputandum", so it's all right if you prefer that approach, as long as it makes nice trees to look at, the kind of potted tree that takes you to an imaginary landscape. My "ideal" landscape must be very conventional... :D
Nice trees, thanks for sharing.

it's a bit of a myth that the majority of my trees have deadwood. i've sold quite a few trees in the last few weeks and others will be up for sale. i would say my collection is pretty balanced out now. every year i'm recycling my collection. my tastes are quite varied, i'm building a good mixture.
 

MHBonsai

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... in Britain.

I mean, it's true I've seen quite a few oaks with dead wood in prairies in southern England, but these are rather unusual here in France. It's probably because where I live, the weather is dryer, in places with lots of fog, mist, rain and wind, any wound will rot down and expand, whereas in drier, warmer climates it will heal better. Just a thought.

But it hurts my sight to see systematic dead wood on deciduous, as if a deciduous tree was fatally sick. Dead wood, "uro" and "jins" may make a tree look "venerable", but I prefer when it looks "majestic" :cool:

When one or two deciduous trees in a dozen have dead wood, it can give them some character, when it's 10 out of 12, to me it's a boring trick. I prefer concentrating on how to make scars as less conspicuous as possible.

Even on conifers, it's not that common here : it's not windy, we aren't in the mountains or by the sea. See for instance this photo of a Cedrus libani I took a few days ago, some branches were broken by a tempest last year, yet, it retains the shape of a Libanese cedar, a bit like the one on the national flag.

View attachment 228490

Other cedars and conifers at Chaumont-sur-Loire :
View attachment 228491
View attachment 228492

Even by the sea, where there are strong winds, you don't see that much deadwood, for instance, a seashore path on a cliff, the Quercus ilex (holm oak) are twisted, but any dead wood must have been erased by the elements :

View attachment 228493

Anotrher photo from the same walk. Notice how the scars have healed, giving some "wabi-sabi", but the tree still looks strong and healthy.

View attachment 228494

And, oh, one that I photographed thinking of you (yes, that's true!) a couple of years ago. The only tree in the park of a castle with dead wood. Can't remember the species, maybe a hornbeam, whose wood is very hard :

View attachment 228498

The thing is "does it look natural" ?

If most trees in your area have broken branches and open rotten trunks, it's OK.

Most of them just don't look like that here ;)

But we've already had that kind of argument, and "de gustibus et coloribus non disputandum", so it's all right if you prefer that approach, as long as it makes nice trees to look at, the kind of potted tree that takes you to an imaginary landscape. My "ideal" landscape must be very conventional... :D
What an excellent response, thanks. I think it's really interesting how we replicate trees from our surroundings. In Tennessee there is an abundance of broken tops, hollow trunks, dead wood, etc. On the old native trees.
ah, now i see where you get your inspiration from:cool:
341B4F0F-5BA8-4627-A140-AB8F26560DFE.jpeg

Like this busted up old monster! A lot of the old oaks and maples around here and up like this.
 

rockm

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Technically not a deciduous tree, but a broadleafed evergreen, this is a boxwood I'm designing to resemble the broken, split higher altitude oaks that sometimes top the Blue Ridge where I used to live. Entire front is carved shari. Deadwood includes old surface root.
boxwood3.jpg
 

Japonicus

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Was planning on spading the roots on this shirasawanum in April, and perhaps lifting next year.
The accomplished high graft, broke after I planted it 10 or so years ago and caused this shari
most of the way from the 1st branch to the ground. I plan to keep it, but don't know what I'm doing.
It is healing over...
 

TN_Jim

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View attachment 228527

Like this busted up old monster! A lot of the old oaks and maples around here and up like this.
That's a rad tree. Indeed trees of this nature are not uncommon here. However, that one is particularly extraordinary. It looks huge. That dead wood lower left is actually exactly the sort of jin-from-chopsite I was looking to attempt.

This image found going down “deciduous deadwood bonsai” image-search rabbit hole is what first inspired an idea to not heal over a chop (apologies to the artist -could not find link again). But also very much by the powerful native trees of said nature I’ve seen my whole life.
1550877701532.jpeg

@AlainK, I too appreciate an interesting new perspective I had never considered on the topic -especially with regard to geographical relation and your images. However, these native beasts like the one pictured above I have just never thought of as being unhealthy -rather they have always evoked quite the opposite. I like the thought of you visiting and being like, “y’alls trees are f’d up.”;)
 

Tycoss

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View attachment 228527

Like this busted up old monster! A lot of the old oaks and maples around here and up like this.
This is almost identical to a great many poplars and elms around here. Our climate is cold, dry and windy. Many deciduous trees here drop branches during drought (especially cottonwoods) and draw the sap to the main trunk. Since it is so cold, dry and windy, many fungi and boring insects don’t do as well, meaning that rot that would happen in months in milder climates can take years. I have therefore come to associate deadwood on broadleafs with old prairie trees.
 

Tycoss

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I guess it’s all what you geographically and culturally associate with health and age. Apparently in traditional Japanese bonsai, even pines are not normally seen with deadwood.
 

Tycoss

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Here’s a balsom poplar trunk that I’ve watched slowly decay for a couple decades. Woodpeckers are doing their work as well. The other side is healthy and vigorous, but this Shari has character!3F7F287C-92AD-4EA5-981F-061F9597141D.jpeg
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I don’t care for deadwood on deciduous trees. Maybe a uro or a Shari on the right species, but jins look like bad cultivation.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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As I said in an earlier post, deadwood on deciduous or broadleaf trees is acceptable, if it makes artistic sense for the composition.

But I like some more traditional growers prefer not to create deadwood on deciduous or broadleaf trees.

One reason I dislike man-created deadwood in both conifers and broadleaf trees is that very few people do it well enough to be believable. I've seen way too many badly done jins and shari in junipers and pines, that I have no interest in trying to create deadwood. It all too often looks fake.

Drawing from nature - this Bur Oak is well over 300 years old, not one bit of deadwood is visible. If it has deadwood it is minor enough that you don't notice it. So there are plenty of examples from nature of venerable age without deadwood.

DSCN3293.jpg DSCN3296.jpg DSCN3305.jpg DSCN3294.jpg
 

Tycoss

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I also wonder if part of the appeal of deadwood in modern bonsai is the fact that it is really the only “evidence of age” that can be produced quickly, like in the space of a demo. Other evidences of age, aged bark, taper, nebari etc. Take time, and need to be built, rather than created in a session. The nebari on this old broadleaf, for example, would be a lot slower to imitate than the Shari I posted above.F439A355-CB81-411C-8C33-9A66BF2E0949.jpeg
 

Tycoss

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Here is an example of the sort of collected material that led me to start this thread. It is a collected Saskatoon/serviceberry. Trunks with this sort of character are very rare for the species, at least around here. The top of the trunk consists of the twisted remains of former large branches.
7EB78CF3-8947-40A5-B213-1EDD46D8B599.jpegC7F5B50E-16C3-4A38-A74C-5A3EA1391FDF.jpeg9954D91D-CD29-444A-925F-B4370ACC33CB.jpegCDA6833F-8FFC-42F4-8708-129266AF07F4.jpegBesides compacting the foliage a great deal, I wanted to make the deadwood a real feature on this tree. Any ideas as to how to treat it? Is it best removed? Brian, does this still look too much like bad cultivation once it’s potted (although mule deer are most likely to blame). It’s strange material, and I have access to similar, but wanted any opinions you guys could offer
 
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