JM Acer P Pruning Advice

[thumblessprimate1]

Later, you might even want to keep one or two of those trunks from the grafts to develop a multi trunk.

 

[ConorDash]

I usually quote every post and reply specifically, I feel like that shows more effort from me to reply, as you all out in so much effort with telling me your opinions, but I think this time people would get annoyed with me posting like 5 posts in a row and writing too much! So I appreciate all the posts and will reply this way instead!

@LanceMac10 at the moment, suggestions have been made for every side except the one I picked, to be the front! Lol, so I'm happy to change it. I thought once I had a better idea of the branch structure or direction to go in, then I'd know what's the front but I guess at the same time, maybe I need to know the front first. I'll go with a side on view like @0soyoung suggested, hiding those scars, I think.

Thanks for that information @M. Frary , it's good to know, and as @petegreg says, treat it as cleaning more than pruning, as I like that idea. To arrange things better, set things I the correct course before better pruning. I'll use them for thickening, in places needed but then cut back far, as you suggest.

 

[ConorDash]

Ok so then on to the more scary bit...

@Vin thanks for your input Vin. You had to give the big scary suggestion!
Seems very interesting, the approach that you suggest and then also that burying the mass next to it, I've never seen that before. How would it work to simply put or half bury the top chop, next to it in the pot? Sounds really interesting and Frankenstein's monster-esque!

@MACH5 It's true, I couldn't see further under the canopy before purchase, however that's my fault for not looking further or requesting more pics. At the same time, I honestly wouldn't know what was good or bad though (this was purchased a good number of months ago and have of course, done a lot more reading and research since then) I just haven't cracked that step of knowing properly, the good branch structure for material and not. Inexperience is a bitch, but I shall gain that experience. Thanks for the follow up post from you, I know you posted previously about it and wanted to see it once the leaves had gone.
And @JudyB , thank you . Your last line was reassuring. All this seems so daunting, especially the trunk chop, and to you guys this is all second nature almost, it's embarrassing really but I know of course everyone had to start somewhere. Whether that was 5 years ago for some, or 30.

So, at the moment the big decision is sort out branches or cutting back hard and using the tree as more of a training one (I never expected a tree that I bought so early on in my experience, to be outstanding, as I wouldn't know the difference between good and bad material at my current stage). Practising many things on it.
Or take the plunge and chop it, and although it will take a good number of years, still gain a lot of experience and potentially could turn in to something a lot better than what it is now.

Why does this seem like such a monumental decision to me, I look like a drama queen!
I'm interested about the chop and burying some of the mass next to it. I guess this would be to create a good base/nebari and using grafts.

 

[petegreg]

Hi Conor. Truly, my approach is very conservative because I know the tree has had some health issues all the season. If it is strong and healthy I admit the Vin's approach will be the best way to re-build one clean powerful tree. Nothing lost, you can go for it or wait (lose?) one season till the tree is well.
note- visiting few shows I could see many wonderful trees. Under a closer inspection I found many flaws...wounds, tapered only visible part of trunk...hidden by branches and leaves. These trees couldn't be shown naked. Sure we are here to learn to grow as good trees as possible. It depends on the owner whether he/she wants wonderful tree "in the season" or overall perfect tree.

 

[Vin]

Ok so then on to the more scary bit...

@Vin thanks for your input Vin. You had to give the big scary suggestion!
Seems very interesting, the approach that you suggest and then also that burying the mass next to it, I've never seen that before. How would it work to simply put or half bury the top chop, next to it in the pot? Sounds really interesting and Frankenstein's monster-esque!

Why does this seem like such a monumental decision to me, I look like a drama queen!
I'm interested about the chop and burying some of the mass next to it. I guess this would be to create a good base/nebari and using grafts.

Okay, this is only my suggestion based on what I see and it is exactly what I would do. However, you should only move forward with whatever solution you decide on based on your comfort level. Here is a good example of what I'm talking about: http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/approach-graft-trident-for-nebari.4351/ It's really not all that scary or difficult. Give it a read and see what you think.

 

[MACH5]

Ok so then on to the more scary bit...

@Vin

@MACH5 It's true, I couldn't see further under the canopy before purchase, however that's my fault for not looking further or requesting more pics. At the same time, I honestly wouldn't know what was good or bad though (this was purchased a good number of months ago and have of course, done a lot more reading and research since then) I just haven't cracked that step of knowing properly, the good branch structure for material and not. Inexperience is a bitch, but I shall gain that experience. Thanks for the follow up post from you, I know you posted previously about it and wanted to see it once the leaves had gone.
And @JudyB , thank you . Your last line was reassuring. All this seems so daunting, especially the trunk chop, and to you guys this is all second nature almost, it's embarrassing really but I know of course everyone had to start somewhere. Whether that was 5 years ago for some, or 30.

Don't feel bad. Like Judy said we've all been there. That's how you learn. Rule number one when buying deciduous trees on-line: always ask for naked pics (no, not that kind! ) even when dealing with a reputable vendor.

 

[AlainK]

I think that pruning at this time of year can be done with some caution with your storage situation. Some dieback may occur on your branches that you prune if the winter is harsh.

Hi Judy,

Winters in Britain are much milder than in Ohio I think. The temps go under 0° C for just a couple of days, so pruning JM after leaf-fall is very safe: the tree doesn't "bleed" and dieback is not an issue.

Where I live, in France (which is not an island - I mean, I know you know it's not an island, but the climate is a bit different), when I have the time, I even repot some of my deciduous in late November and only protect them under a layer of dead leaves up to the first branch (I have a big Zelkova in my garden, and they're free of all diseases!). Tghe climate here is much harsher than it can be in Kent that has an "oceanic" climate, I'm pretty sure that they are no further than 50 miles from the coast. Here, it's at least 300 miles, and that's quite a difference in terms of climate.

I live nerar Orleans, France (light orange), one of my uncles lived in New Ash Green, Kent, Britain (dark orange). The climate was much milder there -- and much rainier too

 

[ConorDash]

Hi Judy,

Winters in Britain are much milder than in Ohio I think. The temps go under 0° C for just a couple of days, so pruning JM after leaf-fall is very safe: the tree doesn't "bleed" and dieback is not an issue.

Where I live, in France (which is not an island - I mean, I know you know it's not an island, but the climate is a bit different), when I have the time, I even repot some of my deciduous in late November and only protect them under a layer of dead leaves up to the first branch (I have a big Zelkova in my garden, and they're free of all diseases!). Tghe climate here is much harsher than it can be in Kent that has an "oceanic" climate, I'm pretty sure that they are no further than 50 miles from the coast. Here, it's at least 300 miles, and that's quite a difference in terms of climate.

I live nerar Orleans, France (light orange), one of my uncles lived in New Ash Green, Kent, Britain (dark orange). The climate was much milder there -- and much rainier too

I like that picture! I'm in the border line of zone 8 and 9, next to London. Worst we may get is -5 but it's unlikely, more like -3c.

Hi Conor. Truly, my approach is very conservative because I know the tree has had some health issues all the season. If it is strong and healthy I admit the Vin's approach will be the best way to re-build one clean powerful tree. Nothing lost, you can go for it or wait (lose?) one season till the tree is well.
note- visiting few shows I could see many wonderful trees. Under a closer inspection I found many flaws...wounds, tapered only visible part of trunk...hidden by branches and leaves. These trees couldn't be shown naked. Sure we are here to learn to grow as good trees as possible. It depends on the owner whether he/she wants wonderful tree "in the season" or overall perfect tree.

That's very interesting, thank you. I never thought of that before, the "in the season" perfect tree or the overall one.
It's true, it's not been in the best of health, and I'm still unclear as to whether its over that issue or even how deep down the issue was, it only ever affected the leaves however the last few leaves on it, stayed and didn't succumb to the issue (they are blackened around the edges now but I believe that's due to the cold bite of weather).

@MACH5 Thank you . I will remember that for next time, but I do need to learn what potential looks like and what 3+ years extra work looks like! That'll be the trick I reckon. I plan to go looking for material to buy, in spring, or I was this winter but at the moment due to health/surgery stuff, I'm not going anywhere.

 

[ConorDash]

Okay, this is only my suggestion based on what I see and it is exactly what I would do. However, you should only move forward with whatever solution you decide on based on your comfort level. Here is a good example of what I'm talking about: http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/approach-graft-trident-for-nebari.4351/ It's really not all that scary or difficult. Give it a read and see what you think.

I'm likening to this idea, to be honest, when I first read it, I was completely not liking it and wanted to keep the trunk because I like it, but now I'm thinking the other direction.
I would like to give this tree a proper try and the trunk chop is very common, tried and true. I've read plenty on it but never done it, so I think this is a good opportunity.

My concern at the moment, is that as @petegreg mentioned, it does or did have some health issues with leaves dying very quickly after opening. It seems now this issue has passed but it's not confirmed yet. I don't know whether this issue would interfere with the chop, however, would it be possible to wait a month or 2, in to spring, to find out if this issue is still there, then if not, go ahead with the chop at that time? I guess, that'd mean looking at around April/May to do it.
It just needs time to open some leaves and show that they can survive, because they couldn't before. Once I can see they do survive, I'm happy that it's healthy.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[Vin]

Yes, it makes sense. First thing, I would not chop a tree that has possible health issues. Secondly, chopping in late spring is not a good idea. The best time to chop is just as the buds begin to show signs of swelling. If you wait until after it leafs out, it will bleed quite a bit and the tree may die. I know this because it happened to me even though I was advised otherwise. The question you need to find the answer to is did the tree actually have health issues or was it just something minor.

 

[JudyB]

You could air-layer this season and make that next years chop... then ground layer...Lots of things you can do with this, really endless possibilities... thread grafting is easy. I would spend the off season reading!
And honest CD, we have all bought material that we though was the bomb at the time. It takes some years to hone your eye for what makes a good one. I'm still learning!!!

 

[ajm55555]

Hello all,

Feels like a while since I showed up on the forum at all. I had surgery recently and thats been.... fun.

I hope everything went alright Conor. Best wishes to stay well!

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

In my opinion doing a chop and total rebuild is a good thing, the tree has not an optimal line. BUT when selecting and wiring primary branches is already a big step, how can Conor envision the evolution and things to do after a chop. I would suggest building a (suboptimal) tree (growing away the chop marks) and gain experience. When you will chop there are some things you need to consider. (1) you have to sort out the roots. Not doing that will only make an (even more) ugly base. Best is in a big grow box for creating smaller and more radial roots. You need the growth of current top portion to accelerate the root formation. (2) Before you chop, you want your tree growing at rocket-speed. You do that in a big growing box or ground growing (after you sorted out the roots). (3) After the chop you need to let it grow and make your chop blend in with the trunk (might be 5 of 6 years) (4) After your initial trunk chop you will need a second part that brings more taper (count 2 or 3 years for that). So with the right knowledge and without issues, it will take you 10 or 15 years. It is good to have some projects like that running, but it is not very motivating when you do it with limited knowledge and without having some more finished trees next to it to keep you smiling. You can start chop and grow material from younger material, create good nebari, good taper,... much faster than with older ugly material.
Airlayering is another option, but i don't see the benefit investing in layering a rather ugly top.
Step one is to look for more optimal material. Yes most of the time it will cost you a lot more. But the basics will be better. For me i would minimize the chops in top, develop an overal nice silhouette that will be pleasing for you and for people not understanding bonsai. Over 10 years with some nice trees next to it it will remember you where it all started. Sometimes ugly trees can be made special. https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/tag/strange-trident-maple/

 

[bonsaidave]

You could air-layer this season and make that next years chop... then ground layer...Lots of things you can do with this, really endless possibilities...

If you have no practice with air layering this might be a good chance to try. Air layered just above that lowest branch could turn that top into a nice looking shorty in a couple years. Worst case the layer fails and you still have the bottom.

Then again you could just trim and wire a bit. Then take one more year to think about your options.

Decisions are tough for me too!

 

[ConorDash]

Yes, it makes sense. First thing, I would not chop a tree that has possible health issues. Secondly, chopping in late spring is not a good idea. The best time to chop is just as the buds begin to show signs of swelling. If you wait until after it leafs out, it will bleed quite a bit and the tree may die. I know this because it happened to me even though I was advised otherwise. The question you need to find the answer to is did the tree actually have health issues or was it just something minor.

Well that's the question which this all depends on then, but I've no idea how to find that answer. I made a few topics and they got very lengthy, talking to many about its issues.. but as with many health issues, finding the specific thing is near impossible.
I'll have to have a think about that one, as I don't know if there's anything I can do to confirm it one way or the other, at this point. Tough decisions!

You could air-layer this season and make that next years chop... then ground layer...Lots of things you can do with this, really endless possibilities... thread grafting is easy. I would spend the off season reading!
And honest CD, we have all bought material that we though was the bomb at the time. It takes some years to hone your eye for what makes a good one. I'm still learning!!!

Thank you . Well, I have air layered twice previously, a small Chinese elm and a large pyracantha. I'm not really too sure that having the top half air layered, would really be beneficial? I could of course do it but I feel like it doesn't look good, so it's simply going to give me another's problem tree, you think?
It's no loss to do it though, just time and effort which is no big deal.
The thread grafting I'm very interested in trying out. I've read a good amount and see bits on the forum about it, so I'm looking forward to that and it also doesn't look particularly complex.

Hi @bonsaidave I have previously done 2 air layers. As I said to Judy, I feel like halving this tree wouldn't produce a good second tree. It'd still have the same problems.. do you think it'd really be beneficial t have that top half as another tree?

 

[JudyB]

Not really, just as a learning thing, but sounds like you've been there done that!

 

[ConorDash]

Not really, just as a learning thing, but sounds like you've been there done that!

Well, no no, I don't consider myself anywhere near amateur, let alone master of air layers after doing 2 lol.
Just thinking about the future of that top half, if I did, seems like it'd be in a similar position to how this whole tree is right now.
I'll have to decide what to do, tough choice.
Thanks for your help.

 

[bonsaidave]

I was just trying to keep the thought juices going. Whatever you chose to do, or not do, be sure to post a new pic in a couple months.

That way we can all judge you in the proper bonsainut fashion ;-D

 

[ConorDash]

In my opinion doing a chop and total rebuild is a good thing, the tree has not an optimal line. BUT when selecting and wiring primary branches is already a big step, how can Conor envision the evolution and things to do after a chop. I would suggest building a (suboptimal) tree (growing away the chop marks) and gain experience. When you will chop there are some things you need to consider. (1) you have to sort out the roots. Not doing that will only make an (even more) ugly base. Best is in a big grow box for creating smaller and more radial roots. You need the growth of current top portion to accelerate the root formation. (2) Before you chop, you want your tree growing at rocket-speed. You do that in a big growing box or ground growing (after you sorted out the roots). (3) After the chop you need to let it grow and make your chop blend in with the trunk (might be 5 of 6 years) (4) After your initial trunk chop you will need a second part that brings more taper (count 2 or 3 years for that). So with the right knowledge and without issues, it will take you 10 or 15 years. It is good to have some projects like that running, but it is not very motivating when you do it with limited knowledge and without having some more finished trees next to it to keep you smiling. You can start chop and grow material from younger material, create good nebari, good taper,... much faster than with older ugly material.
Airlayering is another option, but i don't see the benefit investing in layering a rather ugly top.
Step one is to look for more optimal material. Yes most of the time it will cost you a lot more. But the basics will be better. For me i would minimize the chops in top, develop an overal nice silhouette that will be pleasing for you and for people not understanding bonsai. Over 10 years with some nice trees next to it it will remember you where it all started. Sometimes ugly trees can be made special. https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/tag/strange-trident-maple/

Sorry for my delayed reply to you Dirk. Your post was big and very informative so it took a while to process and formulate a reply .
Essentially, yes. That's what I want. I'm not keen on it taking 15 years but of course, things do take long amounts of time in bonsai and I hope to get more material to work on, either this winter or in spring, to give me things to do in the meantime. I do want to do the chop and I had given thought to a grow box. I like the idea of making my own (not exactly difficult to make a box, I think even I could manage that), so I think when I repot in spring, I would like to do that and a chop.

At the moment, the only thing standing in the way of this approach is the health issues it had. I always thought of these issues as minor and not major, but as with many health problems, it's very difficult to diagnose. As you say, the tree should be in optimal health in order to do the chop and grow from it.

As it stands, I'm thinking of this...
It needs repotting in spring, that much is essential. If I put it in to a grow box, over a period of a year, it's roots can well establish, grow and develop properly, to give the tree its best health (at least from the roots point of view). Over that year, I could essentially do anything to the branches (perhaps use this for practise wiring, or maybe even develop branches to be used for root grafting), and most importantly, make sure it is as healthy as possible. Then, once that year is up, Spring 2018, do the chop as suggested.
It will have been in its grow box for a year, be in good health and provided me with practise and experience in the meantime, all in preparation for chop and beginning that journey.
What do you think, @Vin @sorce @MACH5 ? And anyone else who would like to weigh in, of course.

This means waiting a year but I don't see any other route and I think this is a good plan. Fully expect someone to come along and tell me I'm wrong though

 

[Vin]

Sorry for my delayed reply to you Dirk. Your post was big and very informative so it took a while to process and formulate a reply .
Essentially, yes. That's what I want. I'm not keen on it taking 15 years but of course, things do take long amounts of time in bonsai and I hope to get more material to work on, either this winter or in spring, to give me things to do in the meantime. I do want to do the chop and I had given thought to a grow box. I like the idea of making my own (not exactly difficult to make a box, I think even I could manage that), so I think when I repot in spring, I would like to do that and a chop.

At the moment, the only thing standing in the way of this approach is the health issues it had. I always thought of these issues as minor and not major, but as with many health problems, it's very difficult to diagnose. As you say, the tree should be in optimal health in order to do the chop and grow from it.

As it stands, I'm thinking of this...
It needs repotting in spring, that much is essential. If I put it in to a grow box, over a period of a year, it's roots can well establish, grow and develop properly, to give the tree its best health (at least from the roots point of view). Over that year, I could essentially do anything to the branches (perhaps use this for practise wiring, or maybe even develop branches to be used for root grafting), and most importantly, make sure it is as healthy as possible. Then, once that year is up, Spring 2018, do the chop as suggested.
It will have been in its grow box for a year, be in good health and provided me with practise and experience in the meantime, all in preparation for chop and beginning that journey.
What do you think, @Vin @sorce @MACH5 ? And anyone else who would like to weigh in, of course.

This means waiting a year but I don't see any other route and I think this is a good plan. Fully expect someone to come along and tell me I'm wrong though

I think it's a great plan! By the time Spring of '18 rolls around you'll have a much healthier tree and be more educated in the art. Sounds like a win-win to me.