JM Kiyohime

[Clorgan]

Separate thread for this one. Sorry I've posted it already, but within another thread.

So, new to me Kiyohime. Planning how to get round the blooming awkward roots, and branches. Had some ideas from @AlainK already - either a big chop job or air layer to make a multi trunk.

I had a little doodle - maybe something along these lines? Of course there's the large area on the right of no roots which isn't ideal at all... Would root grafting be appropriate? I know very little about it as of yet.

Any other input appreciated

 

[sorce]

It looks as if this grew roots above a graft?

I guess there is a possibility a graft can interrupt flow and act as a cinch.

I'd want to figure that out first.

Sorce

 

[SeanS]

Wow it’s amazing the forms plants will attempt to grow. Those roots are astonishing!

I’d layer it right at the base of where the “trunks”/branches originate and make a clump. I love a good clump! I’ve got one that I started that way in the works, will be starting the work on it this coming spring (southern hemisphere)

 

[SeanS]

 

[AlainK]

I’d layer it right at the base of where the “trunks”/branches originate and make a clump

That's also one of the options I would take. More work to be done, selecting fewer trunks mabe, etc., but air-layering there should be easy.

 

[Clorgan]

It looks as if this grew roots above a graft?

I guess there is a possibility a graft can interrupt flow and act as a cinch.

I'd want to figure that out first.

Sorce

Best not get @AlainK started on whether it's grafted or not (he's sure it isn't!)

 

[AlainK]

Best not get @AlainK started on whether it's grafted or not

It isn't.

(you got me )

 

[Clorgan]

Wow it’s amazing the forms plants will attempt to grow. Those roots are astonishing!

I’d layer it right at the base of where the “trunks”/branches originate and make a clump. I love a good clump! I’ve got one that I started that way in the works, will be starting the work on it this coming spring (southern hemisphere)

Cheers for this! Those roots are really something Yeah it's a great option for sure - would avoid the root issues... It'd be my first air layer - Have a good idea of how to do, but will look into it a lot more.

Realistically it's probably the best option by far!

 

[Clorgan]

That's also one of the options I would take. More work to be done, selecting fewer trunks mabe, etc., but air-layering there should be easy.

Quite probably the way I'll go - just had a good look at it again and it gave me a headache trying to figure out alternatives

 

[Clorgan]

View attachment 369472

Right I'm thinking about doing this this weekend... With it being such a small area (less than my thumb width) - I can't see how I'd fit a pot on there. Maybe it's just my morning brain?

Presuming I'd be using plastic wrap instead?

 

[SeanS]

Right I'm thinking about doing this this weekend... With it being such a small area (less than my thumb width) - I can't see how I'd fit a pot on there. Maybe it's just my morning brain?

Presuming I'd be using plastic wrap instead?

Ground layer. Use a cut down pot or some drainage mesh to build a little circular wall around the roots, then fill with soil. The bottom of the “container” doesn’t have to be separate from the soil below, it can just be a built up extension of the soil the plant is growing out of already

 

[Clorgan]

Ground layer. Use a cut down pot or some drainage mesh to build a little circular wall around the roots, then fill with soil. The bottom of the “container” doesn’t have to be separate from the soil below, it can just be a built up extension of the soil the plant is growing out of already

View attachment 370071

Oh yeah, duh

Thanks that's super clear - no idea why I didn't think of this!

You a soil guy over sphagnum moss?

 

[Paulpash]

Oh yeah, duh

Thanks that's super clear - no idea why I didn't think of this!

You a soil guy over sphagnum moss?

I'd chop up some sphagnum and do a 50/50 mix - it'll save a lot of hassle digging pure sphagnum out afterwards.

 

[SeanS]

Oh yeah, duh

Thanks that's super clear - no idea why I didn't think of this!

You a soil guy over sphagnum moss?

I like perlite and sphagnum, 50/50. I’ve found sphagnum to be really difficult to get out of the new roots as @Paulpash mentioned.

 

[LanceMac10]

I like perlite and sphagnum, 50/50. I’ve found sphagnum to be really difficult to get out of the new roots as @Paulpash mentioned.

There's "really difficult" and THEN there's getting sphag out of new, fragile roots!

Have not been able to keep a JM air-layer alive more than a year after separation. Following spring died/fungal issue.

Next time I think a full year on the tree, then separate with a hopefully more robust root ball. Better overhead cover to control soil moisture and "garage it" during cold/windy spring very common in my area.


Just some observations @Clorgan , I wish you good layering! Keep an eye on moisture levels, too moist and the tree might be reluctant to throw "good" roots.
Since it might be a ground-layer, maybe consider using the soil you'll use in the future as the growing medium. As mentioned, mill up sphagnum a bit as to not be too long as to entangle itself.

 

[Clorgan]

There's "really difficult" and THEN there's getting sphag out of new, fragile roots!

Have not been able to keep a JM air-layer alive more than a year after separation. Following spring died/fungal issue.

Next time I think a full year on the tree, then separate with a hopefully more robust root ball. Better overhead cover to control soil moisture and "garage it" during cold/windy spring very common in my area.


Just some observations @Clorgan , I wish you good layering! Keep an eye on moisture levels, too moist and the tree might be reluctant to throw "good" roots.
Since it might be a ground-layer, maybe consider using the soil you'll use in the future as the growing medium. As mentioned, mill up sphagnum a bit as to not be too long as to entangle itself.

Thanks for this! Also cheers @SeanS and @Paulpash -easier to reply in one comment.

Good to know about the moss! Is it a must to include it at all? Or could I just use a soil mix? Probsbly with some akadama. I'm happy either way - just curious!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

It looks like this tree was naturally “ground layered” originally by having the soil level too high already... and for quite awhile... maybe 3-4 years, then the soil level lowered on a repot.

The configuration of a distinctly double set of roots high - low is common with Japanese maple cultivars that I have seen that were planted too deep.

Ground layering will repeat this process. I’m not a full bore peat moss advocate either, but I’ll be willing to bet one could just use the wire ring method and raise the soil level to the same effect with less fuss.

It will be fun to see the results of this procedure.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Clorgan]

It looks like this tree was naturally “ground layered” originally by having the soil level too high already... and for quite awhile... maybe 3-4 years, then the soil level lowered on a repot.

The configuration of a distinctly double set of roots high - low is common with Japanese maple cultivars that I have seen that were planted too deep.

Ground layering will repeat this process. I’m not a full bore peat moss advocate either, but I’ll be willing to bet one could just use the wire ring method and raise the soil level to the same effect with less fuss.

It will be fun to see the results of this procedure.

cheers
DSD sends

Yes I'm sure you're right - makes me wonder why they don't just have the soil level lower to begin with... I'm guessing some growers don't feel the need to provide a desirable base since people such as myself will buy them anyway?

Is the wire ring method this? (attached image)

Looking to get it started tomorrow... Happy to go with general consensus (if there is one!) since it's my first go at this. Your wire ring method does sound less faf though!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Basically yes.

I’ve seen the procedure done with 1-2 wraps. Either variation can create a swelling above the immediate rooted area vs a normal ground/air layer.

btw Plan to put the wires about 2 cm below where you want the roots to form.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Paulpash]

Thanks for this! Also cheers @SeanS and @Paulpash -easier to reply in one comment.

Good to know about the moss! Is it a must to include it at all? Or could I just use a soil mix? Probsbly with some akadama. I'm happy either way - just curious!

It's not essential - the moss just keeps it damper for longer. As long as you keep the medium moist it'll have a good chance of taking.