JRP - Choosing back buds to develop branch structure

[jevanlewis]

I have a JRP that had long internodes when I acquired it. I am trying to build more compact growth through cutting into previous years' growth that still have needles to get needle buds (and hoping to get lucky with buds on young wood closer to the trunk that doesn't have any needles). As it turns out, I'm getting a lot of back budding on needleless wood, and so am aiming to take advantage. I'd like to get advice on one area that I'm getting the most growth: the lowest branch. As you can see, I have ~15 buds popping pretty close to the trunk.

Photo 1: Front


Photo 2: Front, Zoomed In


Photo 3: Side


My plan is to reduce to three buds: two will form alternating secondary branches. The third will be the furthest bud from the trunk and will serve as a possible replacement for the main branch (I won't cut the main branch this year, but might in the future to further compact growth). The photo below shows my plan.

Questions:
1) Any any feedback on my plan?
2) Any reason I may not want to reduce to only three buds? I'm almost certain I shouldn't keep all ~15 or so buds, but maybe there's an argument for keeping 4-5 for now and then reduce later.

Photo 4: Plan


Thank you in advance for your advice.

 

[bwaynef]

I'd be tempted to leave all of them and cut back to the branch that looks like it takes a sharp left off that branch. I assume its healthy/strong enough to sustain the branch on its own. That should force energy into those buds. Let them run and bleed off a good bit of energy this spring. Come decandling time, pare them down to a few more than what you want to keep. Decandle the branch you cut back to, but I don't think those buds will warrant decandling this year.

 

[0soyoung]

Unless you are contemplating zigging this branch back (as one possibly would in developing a zig-zag trunk) I would knock off all the buds that are directly atop the existing branch, keeping only buds along the sides of it.

BTW, you know the standard pruning rules of which step 1 is get rid of everything going straight up and step 1 [sic] is get rid of everything going straight down.

Then, I think you probably want to keep the buds closest to the trunk, BUT you could also keep the most distal pair as well, just to hedge your bets. Then if things don't go as expected/hoped you still have a 50% chance of a useable branch on both sides. If things go as hoped, you'll wind up lopping off the most distal buds along with the foliage that has run away from you, sometime in the future (e.g., Aug/Sep '21 or later).

Lucky you!

 

[Bonsaiforlife]

Leave them all there and let them grow out until they are an established shoot. Right now they are just an idea. You never know how many will make it and there is no rush. Once established you'll have plenty of time to pick the ones you want. Looks like you trimmed the other shoots back last fall, this is the trees response to the trimming, let it grow out and fully respond before taking more off. I would wait till either September or next spring depending on how they grow out.

 

[leatherback]

eave them all there and let them grow out until they are an established shoot. Right now they are just an idea. You never know how many will make it and there is no rush. Once established you'll have plenty of time to pick the ones you want.

this was my idea too.

 

[Shibui]

Leave them all there and let them grow out until they are an established shoot. Right now they are just an idea. You never know how many will make it and there is no rush. Once established you'll have plenty of time to pick the ones you want.

Thumbs up from me too. Tiny buds like this can just up and die for a number of reasons so l would leave more than needed until they gain strength. As you have been fortunate to get lots there I would consider reducing the number a bit. Getting rid of some top and bottom would be a good start here.
Extra shoots developing close together will also share the available resources so each will be shorter and more compact which will be good in future.
New inner buds like this sometimes stall and may even die if the terminal shoots get strong. If these stop developing I would remove strong terminal buds from the branch again or prune the strong parts again. Pretty sure that's what @bwaynef is talking about when he suggests pruning back to the sharp left branch.

 

[bwaynef]

New inner buds like this sometimes stall and may even die if the terminal shoots get strong. If these stop developing I would remove strong terminal buds from the branch again or prune the strong parts again. Pretty sure that's what @bwaynef is talking about when he suggests pruning back to the sharp left branch.

And decandling would also send energy further back to the inner buds ...which is why I mentioned that too.

 

[Shogun610]

I’d let those buds on the lower branch develop , then remove ones that are directly up and down. Also, I’d avoid any pinching candles this year so just beef the whole tree up , but certainly needle pluck to redistribute energy once second flush hardens off in fall..Or, you can pinch and decandle after the needles harden off on first flush , then shoot select after the second flush with needle plucking to lowest strength , but leave that other big branch to the left of your first photo, to use as a sacrifice branch, and don’t touch to allow for beefing up the base.

 

[sorce]

I agree, but I would remove a couple top facing ones that may interfere with the side ones I actually want to grow.

Keep em spaced out so they all get airflow and stay healthy.

Sorce

 

[Mike Corazzi]

What do you mean by "am trying to build more compact growth through cutting into previous years' growth that still have needles?"
Are you nicking bare wood ?

 

[jevanlewis]

What do you mean by "am trying to build more compact growth through cutting into previous years' growth that still have needles?"
Are you nicking bare wood ?

I cut into the growth from previous years, making sure where I cut still left needles on the branch. The goal is to get back budding from needle buds, ultimately allowing me to shorten internodes.

 

[jevanlewis]

Update: the tree survived the move from Seattle to Salt Lake and doesn't seem to mind that I moved it from JRP paradise.

In late March, I removed all buds except for ~6 on the sides of the branch and closest to the trunk. Four of the buds have turned into promising branches; I'll reduce to two in the future. There is also strong growth at the end of the branch: I'll cut this branch back to the growth closest to the trunk at some point (red line). Yellow line represents where the sacrifice will be cut eventually.



This leads me to some questions I have about about the sacrifice:
1. The sacrifice is the highest branch on the tree, but it is pretty horizontal (see photo below). Will this horizontal orientation impact its effectiveness as a sacrifice?
2. There are lots of needles on the sacrifice. I've read that it's important to remove needles from the sacrifice to prevent the sacrifice from shading out the lower part of the tree. If the sacrifice isn't shading out the lower part (thanks to its being horizontal), should I keep all the needles and branches on it? I know needle removal is also used to balance energy, but is energy balance important for an early development stage tree like this one?

 

[0soyoung]

It is okay or even good that the sacrifice is horizontal = there is no issue with any foliage on it shading the low stuff you want to keep. Hence there is no need to remove any needles from it, which means it can be a bit more productive, because of all the foliage. The highest terminal bud does tend to wind up 'in charge'. All you need to to assure this is to apply a little bit of wire to turn the end up. Of course, it will then grow vertically (who cares?). I think one does this repeatedly to create a formal upright trunk.

One can get more flair or girth low on the trunk with a sacrifice that goes more or less straight up AND, most importantly, the tree is anchored to the ground, which is hard (not impossible) to do with it in a pot. With the sacrifice whipping around in the wind, stresses low on the trunk induce enhanced radial growth. Telperion's method was to put the tree in a root bag of pumice and stick it into a bag-sized hole in the ground.

Anyway, my point is, where the sacrifice goes doesn't matter as long as the tip of it is above any other buds. The more foliage on the sacrifice the merrier as long as it doesn't shade the low stuff you want to keep.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Such a blessing so many small shoots are. Several have suggested wisely to keep most until grown bigger but would also keep one main branch until these are more grown. Best of fortune with these.