Juniper cascade progression

[Brian Van Fleet]

Looking good...coming right along!

 

[Eric Group]

Thanks for posting this progression! Great looking tree!!

I agree with the previous poster who said you should remove the small deadwood at the bottom. Doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the tree and certainly isn't I. Line with the other dead wood on this tree.

I would also say that the apex you created from foliage at the top, while neat, well developed and aesthetically pleasing on it's own, seems to be fighting with the large deadwood feature next to it. N without seeing the tree in person I wouldn't know how to suggest a fix, but when you have two elements fighting for the apex like that it can be a bit confusing to the eye..

Besides those two minor critiques, this is a beautiful tree!

 

[fore]

Dave, I'm curious, can you tell me where you got this kind of stock? Bonsai nursery or just a regular nursery? Really nice deadwood and overall great tree!

 

[Dav4]

Dave, I'm curious, can you tell me where you got this kind of stock? Bonsai nursery or just a regular nursery? Really nice deadwood and overall great tree!

NE Bonsai...7-8 years ago as rough nursery stock. I believe the tree was grown out in FL., but not sure if it was acquired from a specialty nursery or a regular landscape nurseery. I suspect the former, as the tree, when purchased, was in a wooden box that basically was rotten through and fell apart on the way home.

 

[october]

Personally, I am not sold, as of yet, on the idea of there being a problem between the apex and the deadwood. If I am not mistaken, in cases like this, the deadwood is considered the apex.

I did these virts of the deadwood reduced to slightly above the foliage and also slightly below. Although all seem workable. I cannot say with enough conviction if I would remove any of the deadwood.

Rob

 

[Dav4]

Thanks for the virts, Rob, and thanks for your thoughts, Eric. I like the tree with the deadwood as it is. What I am considering is extending the foliage at the apex (which is still being developed) toward and around the deadwood which may reduce the visual weight of the deadwood a bit.That may take a few years...we'll see.

 

[Eric Group]

Thanks for the virts, Rob, and thanks for your thoughts, Eric. I like the tree with the deadwood as it is. What I am considering is extending the foliage at the apex (which is still being developed) toward and around the deadwood which may reduce the visual weight of the deadwood a bit.That may take a few years...we'll see.

Oh yes, that is what I meant to imply... I wouldn't recommend touching that dead wood at the top, it would never look quite right again most likely.
I was thinking you could either raise/ reshape the foliage there, or lower/ reduce the foliage... Again, hard to tell from pics what would best balance that apex... and you clearly have a fantastic vision of what you want for this tree! I am sure you are making the right choice with the dead wood at the bottom as well, just saying what I would have probably done there and I will qualify my opinion by saying I don't own a single tree as beautiful as yours! Most of my experience with trees of this quality is in viewing them, so I didn't intend to come off like some expert or master who would know better than you what to do. In fact, I come here to learn from people like you so my initial post probably should have read something more like"why did you decide to leave that small Jin at the bottom"? Is it a scale thing? Where by the trunk at the top is thicker, so the deadwood is much more substantial, but In the fine branching near the bottom and smaller piece of dead wood ties it together with the top.. Is that kind of the reasoning here, or am I just reading too much into it?

Again gorgeous tree!

I was reading your progression on that azalea in your profile pic last night too...you have some really impressive trees! Hope I can get a few trees to that quality in my lifetime! I have never been able to spend a ton of money on the trees I buy and have kind of taught myself how to start with nursery stock and work my way up. Just now getting a few trees I can make something a little more mature out of, but my goal is to get my hands on some specimen in the coming years- now that I feel a lot more comfortable styling and caring for the trees I have, I think I could take on something a little more challenging without messing it up! Lol

 

[fore]

NE Bonsai...7-8 years ago as rough nursery stock. I believe the tree was grown out in FL., but not sure if it was acquired from a specialty nursery or a regular landscape nurseery. I suspect the former, as the tree, when purchased, was in a wooden box that basically was rotten through and fell apart on the way home.

Thanks Dave. I guess the tree told you when you got home that is was time to repotted! lol
A great find Dave!

 

[MidMichBonsai]

I love the idea of growing the apex to frame the deadwood with the foliage. I think framing it with the foliage really tells your eye what to look at and I think the deadwood is one of the primary features to celebrate on this tree.

Thanks for sharing your work and progression with us. Looking forward to future updates.

 

[Dav4]

This one was cut back hard 2 months ago but appears to be in need of another trim. I'll hopefully get to it soon, and maybe wire out the apex.

 

[Vin]

The unopened rolled up hose really adds to the composition. Seriously though, 2 months from cutting it back hard! What are you feeding that thing? I want some!

 

[Vance Wood]

This one was cut back hard 2 months ago but appears to be in need of another trim. I'll hopefully get to it soon, and maybe wire out the apex.

I hope you will not think I am being critical of your tree, I love your tree but I know you see much more in it than you are bringing out. I wish I could send you a preview of this post because your friendship means more to me that anything I could say here.

Since a certain personality forwarded the idea that we are doing our Junipers wrong by "Pinching" the growth which weakens the tree. Without much in the way of details as to how to do this we are supposed to use a process of "shearing" the growth, . Since this started I have been witnessing a stylistic decline in Junipers developed in America. I do not know if it is a related phenomenon, the result of people trying to do things the way they have been told or---- the way they understand what they have been told. I know this becomes an issue when I find myself having to explain something about Mugos that I thought I had made clear. But; in a word, most Junipers I see today look unkempt.

Most have lost that foliage pad appearance and in some cases have lost the foliage clouds that generally define a style or form. A practice of pinching, used for more than fifty years, and in Japan many more years than that are probable, has been trashed in favor of something that I believe evidence has proven to be unnecessary. The end result is the wholesale decline of the quality of American Bonsai Junipers. Most of our Junipers today which could be crowd stoppers have become not much more than bushes in pots.

I have included a video of one of my Shimpakus. It is no where near the same league as your tree but the foliage pads have been created and maintained by careful pinching and strategic clipping, contrary to what we are being taught today. I have been doing it this way for at least forty years. Is it possible to do this with your tree? That I do not know, but I can guess.

[video=youtube_share;wUrMZSz4Owk]http://youtu.be/wUrMZSz4Owk[/video]

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Since a certain personality forwarded the idea that we are doing our Junipers wrong by "Pinching" the growth which weakens the tree. Without much in the way of details as to how to do this we are supposed to use a process of "shearing" the growth.

I have not seen any suggestion to shear new growth on junipers, can you cite this recommendation?

Most of our Junipers today which could be crowd stoppers have become not much more than bushes in pots.

It is interesting to see how styles change over the years...clothes, hair, cars, bonsai styles. Some years the trend is toward highly stylized, refined cloud-like pads, other years they trend toward wild and rugged Yamadori. It does seem that the trends of late have been more toward the latter.

...the foliage pads have been created and maintained by careful pinching and strategic clipping, contrary to what we are being taught today. I have been doing it this way for at least forty years.

Would you be willing to share a video of your technique?

Here is one I've developed for the last 4 years, without shearing, but by only removing the strong runners that grow outside the profile, and by pruning out entire shoots in the overly-dense areas. Since it's in the very early stages of refinement, it's still quite dense. However, I feel there is a fine line between proper density and the poodled look.

 

[Dav4]

This tree has been on the back burner for a few years, borderline neglected but not really. It's had a heavy dose of spider mites each of the last two summers and was pretty worn out going into the fall...there were some smaller branches in the middle of the cascade that were on the verge of dying, but seem to be growing well now. At this point, I'm basically focusing on keeping the cascade healthy and in some modicum of shape while I develop a better apex. I'm approaching this cautiously as I know the foliage way down on the bottom of a cascading juniper is always weaker, and this cascade easily falls 2 feet plus below the top of the soil. The pads are there, but overgrown a bit and that's ok for now. It needs a fair bit of wiring, too...maybe this fall.

 

[Vance Wood]

I have not seen any suggestion to shear new growth on junipers, can you cite this recommendation?


It is interesting to see how styles change over the years...clothes, hair, cars, bonsai styles. Some years the trend is toward highly stylized, refined cloud-like pads, other years they trend toward wild and rugged Yamadori. It does seem that the trends of late have been more toward the latter.


Would you be willing to share a video of your technique?

Here is one I've developed for the last 4 years, without shearing, but by only removing the strong runners that grow outside the profile, and by pruning out entire shoots in the overly-dense areas. Since it's in the very early stages of refinement, it's still quite dense. However, I feel there is a fine line between proper density and the poodled look.

I'm sorry Brian I am not going to debate this with you again. I might post a video about it but I don't want to stick a knife in an old wound. However this tree in this thread reminded me of a couple of others I have seen on the net that appear to be in the process of this scheme of things.

One point you bring up that shows a bit of what is at the heart of this dysfunctional discussion: You mentioned that styles change. That is true styles do indeed change and when it comes to a style it is up to each individual to decide whether or not they want to adopt it for what ever reason. Case in point: For several years young men in our community think it is cool to walk around in pants that are three sizes too big and hang below their wastes forcing them to walk like penguins with their hands in their pants to keep their pants from falling to the ground. That is a style change. The concept of not pinching Junipers is a fundamental technical change that I fundamentally disagree with as it is explained. The point is; I am not sure we agree on terminology.

 

[Lazylightningny]

This is a good debate that I hope I, and others, can get something out of.

I'm sure I am doing it wrong, but the junipers I have pinched since last year have all but stopped growing. The tips turn brown, and I get no more growth from that pad. However, when I just cut back the runners, growth continues on the pad below where I have trimmed.

I know pinching is a tried and true method, so obviously I am doing it incorrectly.

Doesn't pinching remove the growing tips from the pads?

 

[Vance Wood]

This is a good debate that I hope I, and others, can get something out of.

I'm sure I am doing it wrong, but the junipers I have pinched since last year have all but stopped growing. The tips turn brown, and I get no more growth from that pad. However, when I just cut back the runners, growth continues on the pad below where I have trimmed.

I know pinching is a tried and true method, so obviously I am doing it incorrectly.

Doesn't pinching remove the growing tips from the pads?

If you are getting brown ends you are pinching worng. And Yes pinching does remove growing tips from the pads just like candle removal removes the growing tips from pads on Pines. It's not what you do it's how you do it.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

This is a good debate that I hope I, and others, can get something out of.

I'm sure I am doing it wrong, but the junipers I have pinched since last year have all but stopped growing. The tips turn brown, and I get no more growth from that pad. However, when I just cut back the runners, growth continues on the pad below where I have trimmed.

I know pinching is a tried and true method, so obviously I am doing it incorrectly.

Doesn't pinching remove the growing tips from the pads?

Read these:
http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/trimming-junipers-during-the-growing-season/
http://crataegus.com/2012/08/26/how-to-pinch-junipers/

I think Vance and I are closer on technique than terminology.

 

[october]

This is a good debate that I hope I, and others, can get something out of.

I'm sure I am doing it wrong, but the junipers I have pinched since last year have all but stopped growing. The tips turn brown, and I get no more growth from that pad. However, when I just cut back the runners, growth continues on the pad below where I have trimmed.

I know pinching is a tried and true method, so obviously I am doing it incorrectly.

Doesn't pinching remove the growing tips from the pads?

Junipers generally turn brown when the tips are cut with scissors in the wrong spot on the foliage/stem. When you pinch, it is only the very tip. There should still be some fresh green left. Hinoki cypress is the same, if not worse. You cannot pinch back beyond fresh green. Even pinching back to old green, the area may never grow again.

Also very important is the stage of development. Pinching is for refinement. A tree is usually trained for several years before pinching is done. Sometimes you train a tree for 5 years or more before it is pinched.

Rob

 

[Lazylightningny]

Read these:
http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/trimming-junipers-during-the-growing-season/
http://crataegus.com/2012/08/26/how-to-pinch-junipers/

I think Vance and I are closer on technique than terminology.

Thanks Brian. I've read both these articles, and they are the reason I stopped pinching.

But even when I pinched, I must have been doing it wrong...

I can pinch a dip of Copenhagen all right, but junipers are another story.