Juniper pfitzeriana progression/ideas

Clorgan

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Already posted this project in a newby thread, but I think this is my first material that actually has alright bonsai potential! So I think it deserves its own thread (the other threads may be added to the burn pile 😂 )

Added photos of work so far - pruning (tried not to do too much), excavating some of the top soil and ridding the top fine roots (again tried not to do much!)

Excited about this! Saw a juniper online when browsing (google - attached photo) and liked the design. Was wondering if I could try something similar with mine. It'd mean planting at an angle. Attached a doodle of the general idea (ignore the bad drawing). Would possibly do the following:

1. Create jin on the large bottom left branch, possibly keep the length? It's quite straight though, would it be wise to wire it to create more of a curve, then jin it? Seems a shame to get rid of it
2. Create sharimiki on the left side of trunk to compliment the jin
3. Wire the right branches down slightly

Have a few queries about this planting at an angle...

1. Is it possible to plant at this angle? Around 45 degrees is it?
2. Would the roots handle it - would the left side roots need to be more developed to hold the tree up?
3. If the left roots do need to be more developed, is there a way to encourage this?

Let me know if any of this sounds daft, or if it generally just doesn't look good or isn't feasible! All this stuff is long term thinking - close future will (providing all goes well) be repotting around August full moon (thanks @sorce for the help with that one!)

Thanks in advance to anyone kind enough to read this and comment 😁
 

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Clorgan

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Have a few queries about this planting at an angle...

1. Is it possible to plant at this angle? Around 45 degrees is it?
2. Would the roots handle it - would the left side roots need to be more developed to hold the tree up? EDIT: Meant right side roots!
3. If the left roots do need to be more developed, is there a way to encourage this? EDIT: Meant right!
 

sorce

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Seems one of the two right moving straight peices can be removed, maybe both in favor of that thin moveable one?
Couple years to think about that, you'll need it all for the Repot.

I dig that you are doodling, it helpful.

I'm order to have stuff moving left on the main trunk, you can guy wire some branches over there and tie em to that Jin, kinda get em moving in that direction.

Keeping it at your future angle will help that side fill out too.

You should be able to pull off that angle.
But tying stiff in securely at right where you want them, for me, is one of the most difficult things to do.

Sorce
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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1. Sure, yes, it's possible.

2. Sure, roots can handle it, but depends on how you go about the tilt. Might take more than one step to get there. I can not tell from a photo. I would have to see the tree in person.

3. Don't plant it too high. Essentially, when you tilt a flat radial root system, you end up burying the old roots, and doing a ground layer to create a new nebari. But I can't really tell you what exactly needs doing without seeing the tree in person. I can't do it from photos. Read up on air layers and ground layers. You might be able to tilt without a problem, but more likely you will have to do a ground layer with the trunk at the new angle.
 

Clorgan

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Seems one of the two right moving straight peices can be removed, maybe both in favor of that thin moveable one?
Couple years to think about that, you'll need it all for the Repot.

I dig that you are doodling, it helpful.

I'm order to have stuff moving left on the main trunk, you can guy wire some branches over there and tie em to that Jin, kinda get em moving in that direction.

Keeping it at your future angle will help that side fill out too.

You should be able to pull off that angle.
But tying stiff in securely at right where you want them, for me, is one of the most difficult things to do.

Sorce

Thanks Sorce 😊 like the guy wiring idea - think the jin and left branch need to be closer together
 

Clorgan

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1. Sure, yes, it's possible.

2. Sure, roots can handle it, but depends on how you go about the tilt. Might take more than one step to get there. I can not tell from a photo. I would have to see the tree in person.

3. Don't plant it too high. Essentially, when you tilt a flat radial root system, you end up burying the old roots, and doing a ground layer to create a new nebari. But I can't really tell you what exactly needs doing without seeing the tree in person. I can't do it from photos. Read up on air layers and ground layers. You might be able to tilt without a problem, but more likely you will have to do a ground layer with the trunk at the new angle.

Thanks for the info! I'll do some research - doing a ground layer does make sense. Think it could be pretty cool if I can pull it off, but there will be other options if not

Edit - a semi cascade seems the most obvious choice! Guess I just like over-complicating things 😂
 
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Clorgan

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This design would need the tree to be angled the other way, possibly not as much an angle as the first idea?

After this would be thinking about the branching - spread, flattened, space between foliage, pads of foliage

Sorry for the many comments - I'm brain dumping, I'll forget if I don't 😂
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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A more logical approach...
But it is quite boring innit?

I have a pfizer with basically the same structure when it comes to branches and trunks. This is what some wire did to it.
This picture was taken in spring somewhere. The entire right side is a jin now. I worked it too soon, it's flimsy and artificial looking.
But.. It shows that there are more options!

IMG_20190923_161957.jpg
 

Clorgan

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But it is quite boring innit?

I have a pfizer with basically the same structure when it comes to branches and trunks. This is what some wire did to it.
This picture was taken in spring somewhere. The entire right side is a jin now. I worked it too soon, it's flimsy and artificial looking.
But.. It shows that there are more options!

View attachment 309857

Yeah fair point! Kind of why I did the first doodle, thought it was a bit different... Just didn't know if it was a bit different but shit 😂 I've got tons of time to think about it

Yeah the structure of yours looks much more interesting!
 

Clorgan

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I agree.

The first doodle looks like a poor doodle of a good tree.
The second doodle looks like a good doodle of a poor tree.

Sorce

😂😂😂😂 I love this. Moral of this story - sometimes I can trust my gut... Back onto the first plan then... Or another more interesting cascade...
 
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As Leo said, you can change the angle by planting it lower , but secure it well and plant it a little deeper.
I think some of the history photos are distracting from your options. Is photo number four the most recent? Can we have four cardinal photos in it’s current state? It does look to be a nice tree and developing well. I would think on it before you plant at a new angle to make sure you get it right. Put some wedges under it or nest it in a larger pot so that you can really see it at the new angle without committing.
 

Clorgan

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As Leo said, you can change the angle by planting it lower , but secure it well and plant it a little deeper.
I think some of the history photos are distracting from your options. Is photo number four the most recent? Can we have four cardinal photos in it’s current state? It does look to be a nice tree and developing well. I would think on it before you plant at a new angle to make sure you get it right. Put some wedges under it or nest it in a larger pot so that you can really see it at the new angle without committing.

Great info thanks! Here's 4 photos as it is now, can take more if needed. Definitely not going to make any changes until I've got a solid plan - really want to get this one right, well as right as I can! So you think plan 1 is a good one?
 

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I would say retain any deadwood for jin keeping in mind that the tree will grow whereas deadwood will not... that was advice I received on my workshop Juniper that I’ve been working on for the last 7 or 8 year
 

Clorgan

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I would say retain any deadwood for jin keeping in mind that the tree will grow whereas deadwood will not... that was advice I received on my workshop Juniper that I’ve been working on for the last 7 or 8 year

Thanks for this - reading that thread was helpful! Just to check I've understood - the point was don't create jin yet, as the tree will grow but the deadwood won't, and it'll look too small?

How's your juniper getting on??

I'm happy to not do any work to it yet, I've got other projects I can play about with to keep me busy. Want to do it right with this one. Only current goal is to decide on the basic styling
 

Clorgan

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So I think I'm probably going to go with plan 1! The semi-cascade idea just didn't excite me. Had to do a slightly better doodle though 😂 With the new doodle I tried to think more about branch shaping - adding more curve but flattening out for foliage.
Not sure about the foliage in the doodle though, it's hard to draw!

So... Any work I should/could do before repotting in August? E.g guy wire left branch to jin branch (not made the jin yet), wire any of the other branches? Or wait till next year after it's settled from the repot?

I'm apprehensive about the ground layering situation...

Found this article https://www.bonsaitree.co.za/blogs/...d-layering-of-a-trident-maple-with-ugly-roots

This is what was meant I presume @Leo in N E Illinois and I'd do this with the tree positioned at the new angle? It looks like a smart move but seems a risky one for a novice...Is there a way I can check the roots now to see if this will be needed?

Hope all of this makes sense!
 

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Retain deadwood in general. you can Jin, but keep it on the large side.

Mine is staying quite healthy. I’ve been thinking to repot to cover up som of the roots and maybe tweak the angle. Roy Nagoshi has styled it a couple times in the Spring, usually when I am repotting my Tsuga. No workshops this Spring though...
 

Clorgan

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Retain deadwood in general. you can Jin, but keep it on the large side.

Mine is staying quite healthy. I’ve been thinking to repot to cover up som of the roots and maybe tweak the angle. Roy Nagoshi has styled it a couple times in the Spring, usually when I am repotting my Tsuga. No workshops this Spring though...

I see, thanks!

Glad it's doing well. Must be really cool to have someone as good as him work on your tree! Yeah the virus has got in the way of so many things. I'd have probably gone to check out my local club by now
 

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