Juniper refinement advice needed

[leatherback]

Hi All,

Back in 2013 I was near given this junipers at my bonsai club. It had just been dug from a field by one of our members, and he just had too many trees. I potted it up in some course substrate and there you go. It was fairly back at the bas and interior, so I decided to go for health and rooting for the first year:



In 2014 I focussed on getting some backbudding and foliage back into the tree and it was just sad looking, really:


Come 2015, I tried my hand at some wire in this plant, resulting in a basic outline, and some dieback:

Fast forward to today. Last year the tree was trimmed and re-wired. Now the tree is finally starting to get scale foliage all-over. However, the branches are getting a bit leggy. 2 weeks ago I trimmed back the long runners that stuck out a few inches from the canopy. I am tempted to do a whole-sale trimming, but that will result in needle foliage. So.. How to go ahead from here? The canopy is closed, but some backbudding is starting to happen in the crotches of last years' growth:

Canopy

Backbudding:

 

[leatherback]

Wow, 5 weeks ago that I posted this tree, and nobody able to offer any insights on

So.. How to go ahead from here? The canopy is closed, but some backbudding is starting to happen in the crotches of last years' growth

?

This is not such a dificult question for the more experiences juniper growersw out here is it?

 

[Vance Wood]

Many are hesitant to say anything because until recently (the last three to five years) the standard answer would have been to tell you to pinch the growing tips on this tree. Now the word PINCH is like the N word socially, not allowed or tolerated. Without pinching, which is now not allowed, most would not publicly tell you to pinch fearing the wrath of the bonsai elite. What you should do with what you are confronted with at this moment, if the powers that be do not respond which I think they wont because if the truth be known they don't know either, you will have to figure it out for your self----I did. So if the tree were mine and I was faced with the same problem I would wait till the middle of the night where no one could see, and I would pinch the ends of the new growth. If you do it right no one will know what you did. If you are interested I will supply more details if you ask for it.

 

[leatherback]

I would wait till the middle of the night where no one could see

Lol. I guess I would then indeed receive the "My husband is officially a bonsai nut" certificate from my wife. But I get the sentiment.

you will have to figure it out for your self----I did

I know. That is what I typically do. Trial, and succeed. Maybe after errors. But I thought.. why try to come up with a mediocre technique, if someone here knows a good technique, and might be willing to share.

If you do it right no one will know what you did. If you are interested I will supply more details if you ask for it.

I would love to hear more. And if the OTHER bonsai elite (don't sell yourself short; You are pretty much in bonsai pinnacle yourself!) also give their opinion, who knows.. There is lots of foliage to try 2 different treatments on one tree. I think you typically remove a quarter inch of the central branch tips for the main 'tufts at a time, right? How would that translate to a tree like mine, which does not really have tufts? Or am I misunderstanding what you do?

Also, my main concern is continued needle foliage. So I was not sure how much pruning to do, or if there is something I am missing.. This one seems more sensitive than my ittoigawa, which stopped growing needles, finally.

Thx @Vance Wood

 

[Rid]

Wow, 5 weeks ago that I posted this tree, and nobody able to offer any insights on ?

This is not such a dificult question for the more experiences juniper growersw out here is it?

I think a lot of people come to the website and immediately click the “new post button”, so if you posted your thread with a lot of other people were posting, it may have been buried quickly.

 

[Lazylightningny]

I don't think there's any way around it. You'll have to sacrifice some of that scale growth to build branching inward.

 

[Mithrandir]

I'm not in a position to offer the advice your after, however, just wanted to say I like what you've done with that tree! The structure looks quite pleasing.

Generally, i've found Junipers to be quite forgiving and when left to their own devices typically back-bud quite easily so whenever i'm unsure I just let it do its thing for another growing season and re-evaluate. Sometimes they fix a problem for you by doing so. The downside is they are slower growers than Elms.

Do you have a front-on photo of the tree?

 

[defra]

I am no expert but i could share what i am being tought by my teacher,
that is to continualy prune the runners back troughout the season after they are about 4 cm long to get/keep the growth on the inner parts and if the branches are suposed to ticken leave the runners on.

This is the process i am applying on my grey owl wich seems to respond very well to it with nice dense growth to work with the next season!

 

[Vance Wood]

You have to first remove all of the crotch growth starting to emerge, if you don't that growth will suck the energy out of the rest of the branch. In my opinion causing new growth to branch out is crucial in developing pads. If nothing is done about the emergence of new growth it will just continue to grow outward until it decides it wants to branch out. There is no certain way of determining when and where that is going to be using current methods. I use a process called pinching which is a process of removing the tips of extending new shoots forcing the new growth to look for another outlet. This is done by supporting the new growth just below the point you plan on taking the new growth back to, taking hold of the tip with the opposing hand between two fingers and pulling outward while flicking the two fingers with the bud between them as in snapping the fingers. This will cause the new growth to separate at the weakest point, usually a joint between scales, without tearing the new growth. Don't let anyone who is anyone in bonsai see you doing this. You will forever be relegated to the garbage pile of bonsai ignorantes. If they ask you how you keep your new growth so nice and tight tell them it's a secret you inherited from a bald headed insane fat man bonsai dork in a drunken stupor who thought he was describing to you the techniques of some perverted sexual deviational bahaviour.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Your tree has problems as it sits, and maybe people don’t want to take the time to dig in, or don’t have an answer. The trunk has movement and potential, but maybe it could be better if you changed the planting angle. The primary branches are heavy, lack taper, and point up. You have decided to train very small shoots out at the ends of these branches, which will only make the problem worse. You really need to get some back-budding on those primary branches to train, and ultimately convert the big branches to smaller jins.

I have since sold this tree, but a very detailed progression thread here shows how I created a more compact tree out of one that is similar to yours in many ways. Take a look at it.

Meanwhile, consider another planting angle, try to get it to backbud along those straight bare branches, and see if you can advance the design. There is a good Bonsai in this tree.

 

[Dav4]

Basic juniper maintenance/development involves periodic thinning and wiring. Remove/jin the branches you don't need, then wire everything remaining out so that the branches have movement and the foliage gets the maximum amount of sun, which will promote back budding. Remove all the growth growing from the bottom of the branches, and most from the top. Feed, water and as much sun as possible. Clean unwanted growth out next spring, but don't over prune... let it grow to gain strength. By the way, I like the planting angle Brian suggested.

 

[Darth Masiah]

Many are hesitant to say anything because until recently (the last three to five years) the standard answer would have been to tell you to pinch the growing tips on this tree. Now the word PINCH is like the N word socially, not allowed or tolerated. Without pinching, which is now not allowed, most would not publicly tell you to pinch fearing the wrath of the bonsai elite. What you should do with what you are confronted with at this moment, if the powers that be do not respond which I think they wont because if the truth be known they don't know either, you will have to figure it out for your self----I did. So if the tree were mine and I was faced with the same problem I would wait till the middle of the night where no one could see, and I would pinch the ends of the new growth. If you do it right no one will know what you did. If you are interested I will supply more details if you ask for it.

lol! got to go all ninja to prune your junipers these days.

 

[Darth Masiah]

i like how peter tea cuts the juniper branches back in this post: https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/shimpaku-clean-up-and-styling/
he shows how to cut the pads back without the tips browning on you from pinching.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Nice styling; I like it. I'd be happy to have this on my bench to develop.

I don't think I would shift the potted angle, but I would be tempted to remove that thick left branch.

I think cut the upward and downward growth, and then cut back to strong inner growth where available, and pointing in the right direction, even if it is not scale. If there is new growth way on the inside, and you don't want to remove the majority of the branch, remove some of the mid growth to give the inner growth room/light to develop and keep some outer growth as a sacrifice to keep strength up. To get the growth back in and scale-like will just take time.

 

[Vin]

The tree has some nice bones. I couldn't resist:

 

[Saddler]

That is great. You have just let me see the light on a couple of my trees I have been struggling with. I can’t wait to get home from vacation to see what I can do with your solution in mind.

 

[defra]

The tree has some nice bones. I couldn't resist:

View attachment 204992

You beat me to it tall interesting elegant tree still in proportion with a trunk this thick!

 

[wireme]

The first thing I would do is thin out a whole bunch of the thin weak single interior shoots that are not growing anyways and contributing to shading the interior. I find that when that weak stuff is removed nice scale backbudding starts up. Stuff like what I circled. After that the decision about exterior, cutting back, pinching, growing out more.....combinations of those maybe.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

 

[Vin]

That is great. You have just let me see the light on a couple of my trees I have been struggling with. I can’t wait to get home from vacation to see what I can do with your solution in mind.

It was just the image I saw from your original image. I wouldn't necessary go hacking on it just because I did a little photoshopping. If you adopt something close to what I saw, please take your time. The apex would need to come over to the left and that would be a good start.