Just a couple of questions about pots

QuintinBonsai

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I've noticed that with bonsai, I've read that colored or glazed pots are not recommended for coniferous trees. Is there a reason behind this? Why are these kinds of pots accepted for deciduous trees?

Why are Tokoname pots so darn expensive? What is it about them that makes them more expensive than any another brand.
 

rockm

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Glazed pots are better for deciduous trees because those trees have more color. Conifers are more subdued in color and tend to be a bit more rugged-looking. This split is one of taste, however. There aren't really mutually exclusive rules concerning the use of either. What looks good, looks good.

Tokoname isn't a brand name. Tokoname is a region in Japan that has been producing ceramics (including bonsai pots) for hundreds of years. It is one of several kiln regions in Japan (Shigaraki is another, for instance) that have very long reputations for producing excellent ceramics. Bonsai pots from Tokoname come in several different grades. While all of those grades are pretty good, the high end includes masters who produce what are essentially works of art.

All of that means when you buy a Tokoname pot, you're pretty much assured of excellent functionality, artistic merit and construction quality. That said, there has been a decline in the number of potters and kilns in the region. Some of the stuff coming from Tokoname isn't what it used to be, especially on the lower end.

Older tokoname pots tend to hold value, too.

To truly understand, you have to see and handle a high end Tokoname bonsai pot. The quality is unmistakable.

However, western potters, in the U.S. and in Europe are making excellent bonsai pots these days that surpass some of the Tokoname ware. China has also again started producing (they used to be the gold standard for bonsai pots long ago, as the Japanese mimicked their pots, imported Chinese pots and even potters to start their kilns long ago) excellent pots.
 
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Stan Kengai

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Tokoname ware tends to be very high quality with much work and craftsmanship evident in the product. Take this pot for example. You can't tell much about the quality of the ceramics from pictures, but you can certainly see the extra work that has gone into it. This is a show quality 6" pot for roughly $85 (without shipping). What I notice first about the pot is the semi-gloss finish. This pot is not glazed, but it has been burnished. Burnishing is a multi-step process of hand rubbing prior to firing, and it was probably also polished after firing. Also note the tie-down holes, something rarely seen in a pot this size outside of Tokoname ware. Another aspect of this pot that shows its workmanship is the vertical scoring on the inside of the pot. The scoring serves 2 purposes: first, it helps the roots "grab" the pot, and second, it helps prevent the roots from encircling the pot, instead encouraging more feeder roots to grow near the trunk. Add to all of this workmanship the fact that Tokoname ware is usually made of high quality clay, and you have an outstanding pot that many would consider a very reasonable price for pairing with a high quality tree.

Take a look around the site I linked, and you will see many pots with obviously high craftsmanship and workmanship, and some with extraordinary price tags as well. But just like anything else, just because something is Tokoname doesn't automatically mean it's high quality. You have to judge that for yourself.

As rockm alluded to, the use of unglazed pots for conifers is a matter of convention and tradition that the Japanese have developed over the past few centuries. I have seen conifers in glazed pots before (usually Chinese artists), and they never seem right to me.
 

Ang3lfir3

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RE: Tokoname .... I just want to +1 what has already been said ..... great stuff and you understand fully the moment you hold one ...


As rockm alluded to, the use of unglazed pots for conifers is a matter of convention and tradition that the Japanese have developed over the past few centuries. I have seen conifers in glazed pots before (usually Chinese artists), and they never seem right to me.
Dan is fond of pairing conifers with glazed pots... and we have a few that have been placed into glazed ware... I think the key to doing this with conifers is age... the glazed ware must show some sizes of age and wear.... It certainly is a matter of taste... but as you both said... beautiful is beautiful... can't argue with that :p


I would also like to say that as rockm alluded to there are some really great potters in America creating some beautiful pots... still working on getting more ovals and rectangles outta them ... but its happening! Now we just have to get the wood workers kicked into gear so we can see some more great work like what artofthedaiza is doing ....
 
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There are a couple of things I take issue with here, and I'd hate not to mention them. While 20 years ago Tokoname pots were the best you could get in America(this is because Tokoname Bonsai pottery has a co-op, that produces a catalog, and ships overseas. Wonderful marketing and victims of it our culture has become) that was never the case in Japan, and never will be. There are several reasons for this. One comes from the type of generalizations in this thread. While I applaud respondees with pointing out that not all Tokoname pots are good, I feel that a little more elucidation would be actually contain information.
Saying "Tokoname pots" almost always refers to the pots sold through the Tokoname Yuyaku(the co-op) in the west. The Yuyaku has been producing catalogs that westerners could order from for decades, and because, Mark, they do not include all potters of the region, and contract out work to Japanese potters from other regions(Heian Kosen for one, who lives and works far far away from Tokaname) and China, QED, "Tokoname" is a "brand" in the way we're talking about it. The sense is one of quality. The problem is the sense "Tokoname" means to people. The Yuyaku sells a lot of mediocre pots, and some of the best known(and ovverated)kilns, like Yamaaki, produce multiple grades, most of which are press molded and crap for show. Many other kilns in Tokaname produce nothing but this chaff, they're the ones on the Toko stamp page without a named potter. Are they functional? Yes.(but so are most 10$chinese pots). Do they look pretty good? Yes ish. I can tell the difference between a quality pot and chaff from a good photo of a tree planted in a cheap Tokoname pot and a named potter. Saying Tokoname pots are good(and buying them on eBay without knowing who made them, where you are getting ripped off by unscrupulous sellers using this lack of knowledge to cheat you!!). The following Tokoname potters make good to great pots, and most of their work falls into those categories:Koyo, Ikkou, Akira Syozan, Syozan, Gyozan(Yuuji and Yukizou), Bahnrhyuhei, Izumi-Ya(Zenigo), Reiho, and old Yamaaki(pre-Toshio). Other kilns produce a lot of mediocre to good work, such as Shibakatsu, Yamafusa, Bigei(mediocre to great), and Ryugaku. Most others are chaff, and do NOT hold their value AT ALL. I can buy Tokaname pots from every maker except Koyo and and Gyozan for 1/10 to 1/2 the original catalog price. Be wary of Tokoname pots, their inherent value is a western myth.
You want the best pots...not a one of the 20 best Japanese potters comes from the region(in the modern(post 1890)era of Japanese pottery). I hope this is more helpful than rantful, as it is tue. Better and more beautiful pots can be had for the cost! When you hold a great Tokoname pot in your hand you do recognize its quality immediately...then you hold a Ryuen, or a Tofukuji, or a Tonyo, or Yuzan, or a Yusen...and realize that you a bit mistaken about "quality" and all your "show pots" were NOT the Shinola you thought!
Ryan
http://japanesebonsaipots.net/
Ryan
 
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Ang3lfir3

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You want the best pots...not a one of the 20 best Japanese potters comes from the region(in the modern(post 1890)era of Japanese pottery).
Great .... where do the best bonsai potters come from ??

I hope this is more helpful than rantful, as it is tue.
its kinda ranty :p But I forgive you :p

Better and more beautiful pots can be had for the cost!
Great WHERE????

tell me where in the west I can buy these pots you speak of ..... I would love to get my hands on them .... not shohin pots either ....
I'm sure the list is short and the supply is limited (and usually on the small side) ..... if someone would like to do something about that .... it would be much appreciated...
 

QuintinBonsai

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Thanks for the solid answers everyone, but I think due to my budget I will stick with the Chinese made Zisha pottery. Maybe they don't have the same quality craftsmanship as the Japanese made ones, but they look very nice, are durable, and are nowhere near as expensive as the Tokoname. I am personally pleased with them.
 

jk_lewis

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Ang3lfir3, maybe you oughta read his blog for some of the answers, rather than get snippy.
 

Ang3lfir3

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Ang3lfir3, maybe you oughta read his blog for some of the answers, rather than get snippy.

I'm not getting snippy.... I used the smiley faces that make it all okay ..... and I have read his blog (often) ... which is why I mentioned shohin ... most of the pots purchased by collectors are small ... and that makes total sense... but my trees are big.... which inevitably causes me a problem ....
 

rockm

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"most of the pots purchased by collectors are small ... and that makes total sense... but my trees are big.... which inevitably causes me a problem ...."

This is one of my biggests issues with "Tokoname" pots. Most of the high-end Tokoname pots shown on blogs, etc. are vastly too small for me to actually use. The larger ones are vastly too expensive for me to actually buy, much less find.

That is why I much prefer buying American pots or even European pots made by western potters. The workmanship by many Western potters approaches the work being done by masters in Japan and surpasses the junky stuff mentioned.
 
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Jkl, her snippyness is a bit founded, as im a bit of a dick. Angelfire, email me, it's up on the blog on the for sale page. Where do the greatest potters come from...that's a toss up between Kyoto and...Kyoto! Tofukuji, Ogurayama, Shukuho, Heian Kouzan....fing Tsukinowa Yusen! these are the greatest of potters in Japan in the last 100 years...Kyoto potters all. They can be had, drop me a line sometime, and check out these potters work on the blog.
Ryan
http://japanesebonsaipots.net/
 
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And Mark,
While I laud our western potters, and have a great collection of them and a few trees in them, there are a few major issues about quality that verify few understand, and less can recognize. Very minute details, single block, carved
Construction, very thin walled delicate construction...elegance and understated balance, these things are lacking often in western pots. This is not slight our western potters, like with our bonsai, we have decades of catch up work to do with Japanese pottery, and centuries with the Golden age Chinese kilns! A friend once gave Mr Kobayashi a custom made Rayner as a gift in thanks for friendship(these things are not taken lightly)...it was stored in his collection with the $30 pots. I still think our western porters have a vast and wonderful landscape to explore, and look forward to them traversing it.
 
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Oh, and those big pots are pricey! And super tough to ship without breakage. That being said, I'll never look at a brand new pot with no patina, no matter the quality or custom design, and see the image of an old tree within it. Bon-Sai...we seem to disregard our matching of age in favor of shapes and colors...and forget the age factor in our balance of tree and pot. There's no doubt you can get new pots custom made in the west cheaper than similiar sizes of new Asian pots, but cheating out on its home is cheating out on your trees. You buy your kids clothes at wal mart, they'll get goofed on in school. Cheap out on your pots...they'll get goofed on judging(^▽^)​
 

rockm

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"Construction, very thin walled delicate construction...elegance and understated balance, these things are lacking often in western pots. This is not slight our western potters, like with our bonsai, we have decades of catch up work to do with Japanese pottery, and centuries with the Golden age Chinese kilns! A friend once gave Mr Kobayashi a custom made Rayner as a gift in thanks for friendship(these things are not taken lightly)...it was stored in his collection with the $300 pots. I still think our western porters have a vast and wonderful landscape to explore, and look forward to them traversing it."

In my experience with Japanese and Western pots there are some big differences, sure. Aged Japanese pots with patina certainly add to the composition, but to intimate that using a quality western pot made by an experienced western potter is somehow "cheating" your trees is, well, silly.

I have had more than one Japanese pot that has all the character of a chunk of milk chocolate or had glazes fail in the first year. The really nice Japanese stuff is way beyond my price range, ability and patience to acquire, as I suspect it is for most. How much does an aged 24" Japanese pot go for? Where can they be found? The Tofokuji pots that have become all the rage can't be used easily with any of my trees, ridiculously too small for much of anything. Also, actually USING such an expensive pot is not for the faint of heart. I mean, what if you, your dog, a squirrel, wind or whatever break a $1,000 pot in everyday use? Not easily explained to the missus...

"You buy your kids clothes at wal mart, they'll get goofed on in school." Wow...don't know what to say to this kind of thing. Some of us can't afford trhe mark up at Nieman's.

For the money, quality, established western potters (and admittedly, there are more and more western potters just entering the market that haven't "gotten it" as far as what a bonsai pot is) are more than adequate for me, regardless of "cheating out on my trees."
 

JudyB

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Irregardless of the maker, when the pot lends itself to the image of the tree instead of distracting from it, isn't that what matters? Isn't it a marriage of tree and pot visually?
These types of discussions are why I find it difficult to ever see myself putting a tree in a "show".
 

rockm

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Judy,

I thought the same thing, but having entered one a couple of years ago, I changed my mind. The attitude thing didn't raise its head at the show I participated in. In fact, I found every participant and judge to be refreshingly free of superiority. The laughter at my tree was minimal :D and it was in a woefully underpriced Chinese container.
 
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Ang3lfir3

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@Judy as rockm alludes to .... those who enter trees in shows usually do it for the enjoyment of sharing the tree... the fun of seeing so many other trees and hanging out with a punch of tree people.... If someone is just in it to show how great they are or how much money that can spend ..... well sounds kinda pathetic to me ....

this does not often seem to be the case with most of your enthusiasts .... just people tryin to have a good time...
 
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