Just got my first juniper (first coniferous, actually :D ) and am hoping for some advice!

SU2

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I've been reading all the 'intro to juniper'-type articles I can but am unable to come to a conclusion on a handful of things that I'm hoping you guys can help me with :)

I've got the better part of 100 bonsai (well, no bonsai, just stock/pre-bonsai, to be precise) but no conifers (unless you count my two BC's, but neither are mature enough to do anything to anyways!), so I'd been meaning to get a juniper so I could begin learning about this specie that I love and conifers in general!! I'd been waiting months for home depot or walmart to start stocking them and, just a couple days ago, finally found them and got a little $5 juniper :D

I don't expect that the specimen will ever be 'good bonsai' it's more of a learning-piece, and to that end I'm unable to figure-out some things about it...

[FWIW this is a 'blue rug' juniperus horizontalis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus_horizontalis ]

Firstly, I'm curious about this cultivar's abilities & resiliency, I was surprised to find little/no mention of this variety when reading the intro-articles - is j.horizontalis something that doesn't really take to bonsai? While I got this specimen primarily just to have my first juniper, my first real conifer, for learning purposes, I still the idea that someday it'd be a cute little shohin (these were $5 little junipers, I found the best one of course and think it's kind of cute ;D ), but am wondering whether I can do some initial branch-removal (like, 10% at most) so I can see some more of the form! I know the rules are very different than they are for deciduous broadleafs like I'm used to but hoping I can remove some of the redundant smaller shoots!

Lastly, the container - I know that I can't remove it from that plastic container, bare-root it and then root-prune half of them off so it'd fit in a bonsai pot, but can I simply remove it from the plastic, gently manipulate it a bit flatter, and re-pot (almost slip-potting, I wouldn't be trying to remove dirt from the main root-ball or anything) and re-pot into a different container where I'm using bonsai soil around&beneath the root-ball I've got?


Thanks for any guidance on this one, not that I've got experience with them but it looks quite healthy and the roots protrude through the container's bottom so am guessing it's got a healthy/established root-system, just hoping for some guidance on whether I can do some minor trimming and a gentle re-pot (wouldn't be trying to jam it into a bonsai pot of course, I've got square boxes that'd be a good fit, but would be ~2" shorter than its current container, am imagining it'd be such little disturbance to the bottom that it's fine but wanted to ask! I guess that, if anything's borderline and I mess-up, it's a lesson-learned and I can just go get another ;D )

IMG_20180420_100919.jpg


Sorry for the terrible pics, am having a camera issue so had to use a crappy tablet's camera for these ;p

IMG_20180420_100906.jpgIMG_20180420_100751.jpg
 
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GrimLore

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Blue rug will give little to no experience with Junipers in Bonsai except for keeping them alive AND healthy which for 5.00USD is a great idea.:)

They need full sun and cannot be allowed to dry out fully. That includes surface roots so resist the temptation to uncover them.

Don't bother wiring it except for practice, a branch on this variety would take years to lignify enough to hold.

They can make an interesting cascade but that requires a LOT of planning and patience time wise.

Again growing it and keeping it alive is very similar to other Junipers so there is a bit to be learned starting with some basics on Nursery Junipers in general -

Don't do a cutback upon purchase dead foliage ONLY.
A slip pot into a larger pot and bringing the soil surface level to the container rim and tipping it a bit is ok but don't fool with the roots first year.
On repot make sure the surface roots are covered with substrate, water it in, cover again.
Let it grow a full season.
In Spring when it is waking up look it over closely, take off any of the foliage on the bottom of branches, you will notice it is weak, rubbery, from lack of sun in there.
Looking at it from the top after that thin out the heavier top foliage on all the branches allowing more light inside next season.
That is what you should be doing the entire first year if you want it to grow and look healthy next year.
The following years I could go on about but typing it all out now is silly :p

Grimmy
 

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Usually, they are very tough trees. If you do root work now, I would noy cut much foliage this season so the tree can have some energy to rebuild its root system. Good news is that they have naturally fibeous roots, so you dont need a colander. You can of course take some branches (around 10% as you say should be fine) and, if the tree regain strenght, wire at the end of the summer. Make sure to open up the foliage a bit so interior shoots dont die.
I usually work either the canopy or the roots in one season, but not both.
Good luck!
 
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bonsaichile

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Blue rug will give little to no experience with Junipers in Bonsai except for keeping them alive AND healthy which for 5.00USD is a great idea.:)

They need full sun and cannot be allowed to dry out fully. That includes surface roots so resist the temptation to uncover them.

Don't bother wiring it except for practice, a branch on this variety would take years to lignify enough to hold.

They can make an interesting cascade but that requires a LOT of planning and patience time wise.

Again growing it and keeping it alive is very similar to other Junipers so there is a bit to be learned starting with some basics on Nursery Junipers in general -

Don't do a cutback upon purchase dead foliage ONLY.
A slip pot into a larger pot and bringing the soil surface level to the container rim and tipping it a bit is ok but don't fool with the roots first year.
On repot make sure the surface roots are covered with substrate, water it in, cover again.
Let it grow a full season.
In Spring when it is waking up look it over closely, take off any of the foliage on the bottom of branches, you will notice it is weak, rubbery, from lack of sun in there.
Looking at it from the top after that thin out the heavier top foliage on all the branches allowing more light inside next season.
That is what you should be doing the entire first year if you want it to grow and look healthy next year.
The following years I could go on about but typing it all out now is silly :p

Grimmy
Much bettrer advice than mine! Follow this!
 
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SU2

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Blue rug will give little to no experience with Junipers in Bonsai except for keeping them alive AND healthy which for 5.00USD is a great idea.:)

They need full sun and cannot be allowed to dry out fully. That includes surface roots so resist the temptation to uncover them.

Grimmy

Why is blue rug of such little value in learning, like which parts of juniper-specific care am I not going to be able to learn with this guy? And yeah $5 for a trial plant is fantastic I would've gotten more if I could've carried them (I commute by bike), will surely grab another the next time I'm out there! Was initially thinking to "practice keeping it alive" but am now thinking to get a 2nd one to try and 'push' to see what the bounds are (ie prune it a bit more aggressively, remove a bit more roots, etc, to get a feel for it - having only a year under my belt, and like 95% of it being w/ bougainvilleas, has me trying to catch-up on other species and I can't think of a better way than to get 2 or 3 more of these little guys and trying various things!)

Oh and thanks re surface roots, I actually added some substrate from one of my tree's boxes to the surface because I didn't like how low the soil level was (may've been me losing some in transport)


Don't bother wiring it except for practice, a branch on this variety would take years to lignify enough to hold.

They can make an interesting cascade but that requires a LOT of planning and patience time wise.
Grimmy

Shoot :( Well I'll still wire it for practice! That's really weird to hear though, I'd have thought 1 season would be enough (had been under the impression that, if a branch grows too-thick for its wiring ie gets wire-bites, that at that point the branch is 'bent' or mostly-bent....am just now getting into wiring, my first phase was just getting&growing-out all my trees and am now just learning to control/style their forms!)

Do all junipers grow so slowly or is it the blue rug cultivar? Are there others you'd recommend I seek out? I almost bought a $15 'leyland cypress', it was ~.7" at the base and had two real low branches I could've cut back to, I figured to just start w/ the cheapest material though!


Don't do a cutback upon purchase dead foliage ONLY.
Grimmy

What do you mean by 'cutback'? I've already pruned-off some redundant branches, they were alive & healthy but the thing was just too-dense in some areas, am guessing that was bad? If so- why?

A slip pot into a larger pot and bringing the soil surface level to the container rim and tipping it a bit is ok but don't fool with the roots first year.
On repot make sure the surface roots are covered with substrate, water it in, cover again.
Grimmy

I was going to re-pot but, contrary to what you're saying (don't fool with the roots), every video I've watched on youtube has them removing the tree from the container, gently teasing-away some of the exterior of the root-mass, and re-potting - if I were to slip-pot this into something larger I'd just be creating an even deeper root-ball which would be an even bigger thing to deal w/ down the line, wouldn't it? (basing that on the idea that junipers don't take root-pruning as well as other species can, have read things like no more than 1/3 maximum) My real plan for this specimen was to remove the container, fluff-out the edges/bottom (I've got a real root-hook and root-rake I could finally use lol!), and re-pot into something more square, something shallower but wider, something where the total volume of the container is the slightly larger but the shape becomes shorter & wider....you're saying not to do this "in the first year" which is where I'm losing you - "the first year" is a term that'd make sense to me if we were talking about collected yammas, or propagated stock, but when talking about a store-bought, pot-bound plant, how do you even define 'first year'? Forgive me if it seems I'm arguing here because that's not my intention I just genuinely don't get it, you're using 'first year' as a metric without (seemingly w/o) any inquiry into how developed the root-ball is, which I'd have thought would be the prime factor here, not how much time I've physically had the plant in my possession which is how you're gauging it (or how I'm reading you)

I guess I'd think that, if it were developed enough to be ready for a slip-pot, that it'd be ready for a light 'fluffing' into a wider/shallower grow-box like I see in the videos (like Bonsai Empire's go-to video on their intro to junipers page) Have a feeling I'll be doing some re-pots as well as leaving some in their original containers just for comparison, like the idea of having a few of these to see how they act before going for nicer coniferous materials ;D


Let it grow a full season.
In Spring when it is waking up look it over closely, take off any of the foliage on the bottom of branches, you will notice it is weak, rubbery, from lack of sun in there.
Looking at it from the top after that thin out the heavier top foliage on all the branches allowing more light inside next season.
Grimmy

See I would've thought "this has already grown a season"! It's pot-bound, it's lush and over-grown, I guess I'd have thought that the past 12mo were the first grow-season, but if I'm interpreting your post correctly you're saying to just hold it in my possession for another year then do these things- I guess I'm just not understanding why the 2nd year is needed, I look at this juniper and see a healthy tree in need of a better container ;p

That is what you should be doing the entire first year if you want it to grow and look healthy next year.
The following years I could go on about but typing it all out now is silly :p

Grimmy
Now I'm just confused because it reads like you're saying I should be doing this in my first year (so it can grow and look healthy next year)....am confused! Hope I don't come across wrong in any of this, I'm very clueless on these and trying to learn as much as I can and just having trouble reconciling some things here, truly hoping you don't take my confusion as argumentation!

Thanks a ton for such a full & informative reply Grimmy, as always it's very appreciated!!!

[edited-to-add: would a cascade be the 'go-to' style for creeping-type junipers? This specimen has its 2 largest branches basically in cascade form already, I'm going to wire them and unsure whether I should try and work with the cascade or force them sideways/upright-angled, any thoughts on this would be appreciated! Like the idea of wiring it to make an upright w/ 3 or 4 'pads' but don't want to fight nature if that's just not something you do with creeping-junipers!]
 

SU2

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A slip pot into a larger pot and bringing the soil surface level to the container rim and tipping it a bit is ok but don't fool with the roots first year.
On repot make sure the surface roots are covered with substrate, water it in, cover again.
Oh! Wanted to ask what type of substrate would you recommend? I know I want to keep as much soil/dirt from the container as possible but for slip-/re-potting what would you use if your on-hand's were pine-bark, scoria/lava, perlite, DE and sphagnum? I was thinking something like 50% diatomite/DE(8822), 25% scoria (1.5-->5mm pieces) and 25% pine-bark-chunks (~2-4mm chunks), would that be about accurate? I was also planning to err to the smaller particles in my bags (I keep all these separate so I can just scoop what I want for any particular mix, just scoop & rinse!), this time though I wasn't even going to rinse because I wanted the fines because I didn't want such a large variance between the two soils (mine and the juniper's original soil/dirt), as my understanding is it's not good to have sharp differences in soil-structure like that!
 

SU2

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Usually, they are very tough trees. If you do root work now, I would noy cut much foliage this season so the tree can have some energy to rebuild its root system. Good news is that they have naturally fibeous roots, so you dont need a colander. You can of course take some branches (around 10% as you say should be fine) and, if the tree regain strenght, wire at the end of the summer. Make sure to open up the foliage a bit so interior shoots dont die.
I usually work either the canopy or the roots in one season, but not both.
Good luck!

Thanks!! It's good to hear they're tough, am learning things about them where they aren't tough though ie you can't trunk-chop them, you can't hard-prune past the foliage, etc (besides some ~3mo+ bald cypress yammas, this juniper is the first conifer I have- I've got a garden of almost 100 bonsai lol and the BC's and this juniper are the only non-broad-leafed trees! I love coniferous trees and, after spending enough time getting my basic chops w/ broadleaf trees, am finally ready to give coniferous stuff a go!)

I wasn't planning to do much 'root work', my plan was to essentially imitate the videos I've been watching (used google to find a slew of 'instant juniper bonsai' videos where they start with a store-bought little specimen like mine), in these videos the common approach is to do an initial styling (clip&wire), remove it from the pot and tease-off a bit of the outside&bottom of the root-ball, and then re-pot into something shallower&wider (most of the videos show them going into bonsai pots, I'm planning more of a grow/training pot ie just larger but still proper proportions ie not deep!)

I guess I'm thinking that if I copy what those videos do, only I'm far less aggressive with my root-hook and am really just 'spreading'/flattening the root-ball instead of cutting any off, and style the top at the same time (ie now, right before summer, as it's starting its first flush), that the larger training-pot will let the roots strengthen and solidify what I've done to the top so that I don't have to re-pot for 2yrs (ie skip a re-pot next year, do it now instead and get rid of that tall/thin container shape!)

Am going to get more of these to work with as I've just gotta re-pot one and I've gotta see how it differs from one that I left in its pot, so need at least 1 more but thinking 2 or 3 more would be smart (they're just $5 so, despite my love of collected/propagated trees only, it's hard to resist! Plus I've found zero ways to collect a coniferous yamadori yet which I hate, I figured that learning more about them this way may help with that because truly that is the real goal, to be comfortable enough with them that I can find mature specimen to collect, I don't like small / immature trees lol ;p )
 

SU2

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Much bettrer advice than mine! Follow this!

I can follow both once I've gotten back to walmart to buy a couple more ;D

Gotta say I'm still kind of confused by something- why would you wait til the end of summer before wiring? If they're tough then what harm would a gentle wiring do, what should I be careful of? Am thinking I'll need 3 of these at a minimum, 1 that I leave un-touched, one that I copy grimmy's advice to the letter on, and another that I push (and possibly kill)
 

GrimLore

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I'm out there! Was initially thinking to "practice keeping it alive" but am now thinking to get a 2nd one to try and 'push' to see what the bounds are (ie prune it a bit more aggressively, remove a bit more roots, etc, to get a feel for it - having only a year under my belt, and like 95% of it being w/ bougainvilleas, has me trying to catch-up on other species and I can't think of a better way than to get 2 or 3 more of these little guys and trying various things!)

Get one more, do as I say with one, and experiment with the other. Some things vary a small amount by location BUT this type of Juniper, as well as few other similar have the same growth habits

Shoot :( Well I'll still wire it for practice! That's really weird to hear though, I'd have thought 1 season would be enough (had been under the impression that, if a branch grows too-thick for its wiring ie gets wire-bites, that at that point the branch is 'bent' or mostly-bent....am just now getting into wiring, my first phase was just getting&growing-out all my trees and am now just learning to control/style their forms!)

Stake it upward in one direction and arch it growing in the other direction. The trunk will take a LONG time to support the foliage without a stake as this type of juniper does not lignify as quick as many others.

What do you mean by 'cutback'? I've already pruned-off some redundant branches, they were alive & healthy but the thing was just too-dense in some areas, am guessing that was bad? If so- why?

It is not acclimated and junipers need foliage to grow. Taking off to much could eventually kill it.

I guess I'd think that, if it were developed enough to be ready for a slip-pot, that it'd be ready for a light 'fluffing' into a wider/shallower grow-box like I see in the videos (like Bonsai Empire's go-to video on their intro to junipers page) Have a feeling I'll be doing some re-pots as well as leaving some in their original containers just for comparison, like the idea of having a few of these to see how they act before going for nicer coniferous materials ;D

I did mention a slip pot/up pot...

See I would've thought "this has already grown a season"! It's pot-bound, it's lush and over-grown, I guess I'd have thought that the past 12mo were the first grow-season, but if I'm interpreting your post correctly you're saying to just hold it in my possession for another year then do these things- I guess I'm just not understanding why the 2nd year is needed, I look at this juniper and see a healthy tree in need of a better container ;p

It is lush because it is meant to grow exactly as you see in naturally, liken it to a low large ground cover in landscape.

Now I'm just confused because it reads like you're saying I should be doing this in my first year (so it can grow and look healthy next year)....am confused! Hope I don't come across wrong in any of this, I'm very clueless on these and trying to learn as much as I can and just having trouble reconciling some things here, truly hoping you don't take my confusion as argumentation!

Thanks a ton for such a full & informative reply Grimmy, as always it's very appreciated!!!

[edited-to-add: would a cascade be the 'go-to' style for creeping-type junipers? This specimen has its 2 largest branches basically in cascade form already, I'm going to wire them and unsure whether I should try and work with the cascade or force them sideways/upright-angled, any thoughts on this would be appreciated! Like the idea of wiring it to make an upright w/ 3 or 4 'pads' but don't want to fight nature if that's just not something you do with creeping-junipers!]

Getting rid of dead foliage, not playing a lot with the roots, and everything else I recommended is to ensure it stays healthy, you don't no if it in fact will like your growing conditions, and a few other things like were it was actually grown. The first full year acclimates the plant.

I mentioned cascade in my earlier post and in this one mentioned how using a stake :)

Grimmy
 
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I can follow both once I've gotten back to walmart to buy a couple more ;D

Gotta say I'm still kind of confused by something- why would you wait til the end of summer before wiring? If they're tough then what harm would a gentle wiring do, what should I be careful of? Am thinking I'll need 3 of these at a minimum, 1 that I leave un-touched, one that I copy grimmy's advice to the letter on, and another that I push (and possibly kill)
Well, "tough" does not mean immortal! Wiring is stressful for a tree. If you do root work, then you should let the tree alone to regain strength before stressing it out again. That is particularly true for conifers.
 
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BE.REAL

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Blue rug will give little to no experience with Junipers in Bonsai except for keeping them alive AND healthy which for 5.00USD is a great idea.:)

They need full sun and cannot be allowed to dry out fully. That includes surface roots so resist the temptation to uncover them.

Don't bother wiring it except for practice, a branch on this variety would take years to lignify enough to hold.

They can make an interesting cascade but that requires a LOT of planning and patience time wise.

Again growing it and keeping it alive is very similar to other Junipers so there is a bit to be learned starting with some basics on Nursery Junipers in general -

Don't do a cutback upon purchase dead foliage ONLY.
A slip pot into a larger pot and bringing the soil surface level to the container rim and tipping it a bit is ok but don't fool with the roots first year.
On repot make sure the surface roots are covered with substrate, water it in, cover again.
Let it grow a full season.
In Spring when it is waking up look it over closely, take off any of the foliage on the bottom of branches, you will notice it is weak, rubbery, from lack of sun in there.
Looking at it from the top after that thin out the heavier top foliage on all the branches allowing more light inside next season.
That is what you should be doing the entire first year if you want it to grow and look healthy next year.
The following years I could go on about but typing it all out now is silly :p

Grimmy
This is great advice! Esp. regarding the "On repot make sure the surface roots are covered with substrate, water it in, cover again." lost a couple because of this, IMO, also don't think a colander is good for these as well(mentioned further down thread).
would be curious Mr. Grimmy on these instructions with regards to Shimpaku's? I am going through a juniper faze(have always been a big fan anyway), and have a bunch in development stage, got more I need to put in ground com fall, nervous about them acclimating prior to winter, but will have protection this year, after losing a few different species last winter, in my defense last winter was a Doozy!!(in Boston anyway)
 

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You cut every third branch, and apply wire to make sort of a flat wave on top.

Pretty easy to make good bonezai
 

SU2

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Get one more, do as I say with one, and experiment with the other. Some things vary a small amount by location BUT this type of Juniper, as well as few other similar have the same growth habits

I got another and for months I've just been watching them (only wired the first one and did minor trimming to it, that was right upon receipt / untouched since), am kinda shocked at how slow they grow I mean I expected slower but wow!!!! Being accustomed to bougies, crape myrtles and BC's gave me unrealistic subconscious expectations I think :p

Getting rid of dead foliage, not playing a lot with the roots, and everything else I recommended is to ensure it stays healthy, you don't no if it in fact will like your growing conditions, and a few other things like were it was actually grown. The first full year acclimates the plant.

Good stuff, that's how I'm approaching them, didn't end up trying to see how one would handle a slip-pot I only did the wiring/minimal-cutting to one and from thereon have just kept them hydrated. The first one, the one that I wired & pruned some from, has had a spot of die-back on its 2nd-strongest branch (out of 3 branches on the tiny lil thing!) so am very glad I didn't do anything else as surely there would've been far more die-back had it been stressed more!!

Thanks for the info (as always :D !!) And my apologies for the delay, I'd opened a bunch of new replies into a browser window that got buried, am now catching-up ;D
 
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