just got young JM with questions

[linlaoboo]

Newbie JM enthusiast here, have killed similar material over the winter in 6b before. so far I only let it get afternoon sun for about 5 hours a day and have seen new leave growth but some of the old leaves as purchased have odd shapes and are somewhat wrinkled in full size.Is this normal? I remember the nursery guy told me they use well water for everything they grow there.

The new growth seem to be ok so far.

I'm hoping to keep these alive for a couple years to thicken up before thinking about shaping it. Would you recommend growing it in the ground? Which direction and how much sun should I give it when field grown?

 

[fore]

Yes, put it in the ground to thicken it up, develop taper and nebari (plant over a ceramic tile). Full sun. I'd guess your plant looks sickly because the soil is staying moist too long. Just a guess.

 

[linlaoboo]

Btw, what kind of JM is this? They didn't come labeled =(

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Btw, what kind of JM is this? They didn't come labeled =(

honestly that can be kind of hard to tell.... tho it looks as if its probably just Acer P. ... which is kinda nice really! put it in the ground and let it grow... I can't really tell from the pictures but it doesn't seem to be grafted .... named varieties are usually grafted especially in the nursery trade...

 

[linlaoboo]

there r 2 of them, not grafted. They graft them to retain the nice looks and colors since maple seeds aren't guranteed to retain the quality of the original plant.

 

[stacy allen muse]

??????????????

 

[daygan]

The leaves look somewhat shriveled but not dried out. I've seen this same deformation in saplings that are growing in marsh-like conditions, so I would say that fore's guess is possible, though there may be other possibilities as well.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

there r 2 of them, not grafted. They graft them to retain the nice looks and colors since maple seeds aren't guranteed to retain the quality of the original plant.

I know exactly why maples are grafted in the nursery trade ....

 

[Smoke]

....and its not to retain the quality of the original plant.

 

[linlaoboo]

....and its not to retain the quality of the original plant.

something to do with the root stock?

 

[Ang3lfir3]

....and its not to retain the quality of the original plant.

+1 for truth ....

 

[linlaoboo]

Well since I don't know what you guys meant I visited a few nurseries and had a closer look at some lace type JP and the Bloodgoods. The lace types seem to be grafted onto just regular Acer P. This is evident by the leaves that emerge much below the graft point and very close to ground level. They're not laced and looked exactly like regular Acer Ps. I didn't see graft marks on the bloodgoods. Home Depot wanted $45 for their smallest sized JP; not sure how many gallon. The trunk thickness was over 1". I'm thinking if I can air layer just below the graft point and if successful, to use the top of the tree as a landscape tree and the lower part of the tree as bonsai. The thing is I have no idea how the bonsai will turn out.

 

[0soyoung]

The root-stock acer palmatum will probably make a nice bonsai. Several years ago I bought an Ukigumo at a discount and discovered that its second trunk was really the root stock to which it had been side grafted. I air-layered the root stock trunk and have since made 3 generations of air-layers from it - making trunks and making mistakes and learning with low cost material. I have lots of other specie Japanes maples in my yard that I also take air-layers from for bonsai material. I'm still getting there, but I've been well entertained by the process. I hope to create some respectable bonsai, but I honestly don't think any of them will be masterworks any more than I honestly expected to win a Nobel Prize with my career work. Still what I do is a worthwhile. I'm really not doing any of it for anyone other than myself and I find the quest to be a good use of my time and satisfying to my interests.

I think you have a great idea. For $45 you will have at least 2 trees - pretty reasonable price for the entertainment. Bloodgood will grow to about 20+ feet eventually and the leaves are spectaclar when back-lit by the sun, regardless of whether it is planted in your yard or in a pot.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I'm thinking if I can air layer just below the graft point

doing this entirely defeats the purpose of air layering..... what we are talking about is the fact that most Acer P can and do thrive on their own roots if layered or started as cuttings.... however ... in the nursery trade its far faster/easier and more profitable to propogate material using grafts.... this is for the most part why it is done (a 15minute intro and any boob with a knife can graft ... no one said they will turn out nice) .... also most of them simply don't know that there are other ways.... nor do they care ...

usually in bonsai we layer to remove the grafted understock and avoid the nastiness that is left behind by such work ... bloodgoods don't make the best bonsai.... really straight Acer P is the best way to go .... lace leafs don't make for great bonsai either at least not early on ( they can be a fun challenge later down the line ) ....

so there... I've added to your pantheon of knowledge

 

[linlaoboo]

doing this entirely defeats the purpose of air layering..... what we are talking about is the fact that most Acer P can and do thrive on their own roots if layered or started as cuttings.... however ... in the nursery trade its far faster/easier and more profitable to propogate material using grafts.... this is for the most part why it is done (a 15minute intro and any boob with a knife can graft ... no one said they will turn out nice) .... also most of them simply don't know that there are other ways.... nor do they care ...

usually in bonsai we layer to remove the grafted understock and avoid the nastiness that is left behind by such work ... bloodgoods don't make the best bonsai.... really straight Acer P is the best way to go .... lace leafs don't make for great bonsai either at least not early on ( they can be a fun challenge later down the line ) ....

so there... I've added to your pantheon of knowledge

Ang3lfir3,

I already knew what you stated. However, I want to air layer the lace top or whatever fancy material off and put it in the yard without wasting it. Air layering or chopping to improve taper on the understock is a good idea if I want the understock to become a bonsai. I don't want to get rid of the understock since I think it's a Acer P that I can use as a bonsai. Had I been able to find a straight Acer P. that's grafted, then yes your statement makes sense. Unless I don't understand that using the understock as a bonsai is not ok b/c it carries some nastiness somehow?

 

[Paradox]

Noob question, because I don't know, but why don't bloodgoods make good bonsai?


Thanks

 

[Ang3lfir3]

linlaboo .... sounds like you have a plan....

Paradox .... I think they can make decent bonsai (just not the Best) but I also think it would be better to start with a non red variety.... that's probably just my personal bias speaking and nothing more ....

 

[0soyoung]

At the risk of again intruding into a 'private' thread, Bloodgood doesn't make "good bonsai" because the leaves are large for the scale of bonsai and will not reduce much in size. The leaf JM's just won't reduce. Further, red leaf JM's have a general reputation of being weak on their own roots, but I seriously doubt that this is true for Bloodgood.

If you want to spend some money, there are some outstanding JMs for bonsai that have small leaves. Among them Shin deShojo (choral red), Shishigashira (green), Okushimo (green), Higasayama (variagated and good luck finding it), Sharp's pygmy (green), and just about every xx 'Hime' cultivar. If you really like lace leaf JMs, then get a Sieryu (green). All of these are vigorous on their own roots, though you will have to air/ground layer it off the grafted roots. You likely will be able to find a deShojo or Shishigashira (aka Lion's mane) on their own roots at a bonsai nursery if you need instant gratification.

Lastly, a big part (if not the point) of big-league deciduous bonsai is the branch structure and rammification that is seen when the tree is free of foliage. Leaf color matters not. However, leaf size limits the degree of rammification that can be achieved - small leaves = potentially dense rammification, big leaves, the opposite.

So, IMHO, you need to decide what you want/can to do.

 

[rockm]

Having worked with a Bloodgood for a few years, I can say it CAN make a decent bonsai, but never of the same quality as a regular old green Japanese maple. Bloodgood is generally coarser in twigging and longer in leaf internode than the plain JM cultivars. It takes more effort to get the same results that can be gotten with ease in green JMs.

Although Bloodgood is readily available at sometimes ridiculous prices at a huge number of nurseries and even supermakets, it is almost always grafted. The grafts are usually badly done and get worse as the tree ages. Along with that can come a multi-level nebari (large roots that emerge at different levels on the lower trunk) that have to be sorted out over a period of years.

However, it is a strong grower and can take a lot of abuse. Sometimes you can find one that has really good roots and a well-done graft. And once those multi-level roots are eliminated, the tree can develop an impressive surface root structure.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

rockm pretty much layed it all out as to the things I don't like about it ...

0soyoung ... the leaf color was an arbitrary reference in the sense that most green varieties ramify better and will react to bonsai culture better ( the leaf color is not the reason its just a heuristic )