JWP development advice

Forsoothe!

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put a couple mud men in the pot an call it Penjing. (just kidding, sometimes calling a tree Penjing is the humorous way of saying it is just never going to be bonsai). Penjing is just as serious, and just as design intensive as Bonsai.

There is no easy way to "fix" this tree in less than one or two decades. I hope you did not pay much for it.

Seriously, I would consider learning to graft. The cultivar of JWP seems nice enough. Use the upper parts of this tree as donor for scions. Graft some new branches into the lower portion of the tree. Graft some scions from this tree onto other pines you have in your collection. Get some nice JBP or Pinus sylvestris seedlings to use as understock. Graft low into their root zones scions from this JWP.

Frankly, removing that entire straight trunk is the only fix for this tree. The removal should be done slowly, in stages. Harvesting scions for grafting is a good way to do it.
Forgive me, but whenever someone suggests grafting something the hair on the back of my neck stands up. I hate grafted trees to the point that I wouldn't take a free one. Even very good grafts by professional stand out like a sore thumb. Why would a greenhorn's graft be something less glaring? The general consensus of stumpers here is to air-layer off any stock with an unpleasant graft out of one side of the mouth and graft new branches into barren areas of other trees. Grafts on lower parts of trunk bad; grafts on uppers parts good. What am I missing?
 

Adair M

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Forgive me, but whenever someone suggests grafting something the hair on the back of my neck stands up. I hate grafted trees to the point that I wouldn't take a free one. Even very good grafts by professional stand out like a sore thumb. Why would a greenhorn's graft be something less glaring? The general consensus of stumpers here is to air-layer off any stock with an unpleasant graft out of one side of the mouth and graft new branches into barren areas of other trees. Grafts on lower parts of trunk bad; grafts on uppers parts good. What am I missing?
What you’re missing is seeing trees that have been grafted well.

On another thread, where you made a similar claim about grafted trees, I posted some examples of my trees that have been grafted. Here are a few of them:

E88C64D5-C487-447A-B295-01BC91D5C987.jpeg
492CCB3B-BEC2-41DF-9E3B-2D290B208ECB.jpeg
7CCA934E-FC6A-4122-9154-3801E2A12F60.jpeg
AC7F1B9A-152F-48D5-B7DE-04D41F887020.jpeg
984206B8-547B-4E99-9532-B75AC95E5DA2.jpeg
A2C086D5-BA36-4E60-8523-EB3F2EB09B87.jpeg
88991B52-3443-4101-A132-9FEAC1524930.jpeg
 

JudyB

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What you’re missing is seeing trees that have been grafted well.

On another thread, where you made a similar claim about grafted trees, I posted some examples of my trees that have been grafted. Here are a few of them:

View attachment 286100
View attachment 286101
View attachment 286102
View attachment 286104
View attachment 286105
View attachment 286107
View attachment 286110
I still lust after that first one...

Anyone who isn't using grafting techniques is missing out on a good development strategy.
 

MichaelS

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What you’re missing is seeing trees that have been grafted well.

On another thread, where you made a similar claim about grafted trees, I posted some examples of my trees that have been grafted. Here are a few of them:

View attachment 286100
View attachment 286101
View attachment 286102
View attachment 286104
View attachment 286105
View attachment 286107
View attachment 286110
I like the second and third last trees Adair. They have a nice wild look to them, Better than many overly manicured Japanese show trees. Congrats!
 

MichaelS

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Hey all,
I’ve posted this tree before, but with two other trees so despite the great advice I got before I just wanted to get a few more opinions and post it by itself. I’ve also confirmed it’s a JWP as previously I wasn’t sure, purchased in Lodder Bonsai in The Netherlands last summer.
I probably want to cut it down a bit, but ain’t sure yet.View attachment 285137
This is quite difficult material. I would tackle it this way (from what I can see here)



Pull it (1) down gradually so it almost touches the trunk then twist the new remaining top (2) back (twisting forward and to the left) to the left and form an apex with that. Of course this should be done gradually over a number of years.

whitepine material - Copy.JPG

whitepine material2 - Copy - Copy.JPG
 

Potawatomi13

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This is quite difficult material. I would tackle it this way (from what I can see here)



Pull it (1) down gradually so it almost touches the trunk then twist the new remaining top (2) back (twisting forward and to the left) to the left and form an apex with that. Of course this should be done gradually over a number of years.

View attachment 286220

View attachment 286219

Not bad idea at all;). Whatever is done straight section(s)of trunk needs to change.
 

Scott B

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This is quite difficult material. I would tackle it this way (from what I can see here)



Pull it (1) down gradually so it almost touches the trunk then twist the new remaining top (2) back (twisting forward and to the left) to the left and form an apex with that. Of course this should be done gradually over a number of years.

View attachment 286220

View attachment 286219
I love that! Any tips for pulling (1) down? I’ve found it is a bit stiff.
 

Mike Corazzi

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@Adair M... I hope you know I would never steal your trees.
I sure LIKE them, but would never take them.

I mean unless you ...uh... sold them to me..or...uh...
Well, they are gorgeous.
 

Adair M

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@Adair M... I hope you know I would never steal your trees.
I sure LIKE them, but would never take them.

I mean unless you ...uh... sold them to me..or...uh...
Well, they are gorgeous.
Well, I know you were jesting... but theft is one of those things that just aren’t funny.

I’ve worked hard over the years to obtain/make a nice collection with A varied collection of styles.
 

MichaelS

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I love that! Any tips for pulling (1) down? I’ve found it is a bit stiff.
I have done it on a white pine of similar size. They are quite flexible but you need to be careful. First prune (only what is in the way and leave everything else) Then wrap the trunk starting well before the bend and finishing well after it. I like to use strips of material from tee shirt or similar. Slightly stretchy but not pure cotton because it rots too fast. Pull it nice and tight and go over it at least three layers over the bend area. Now you need to find an area on the lower part where you can attach the wire which will hold it so it won't slip. Cut 2 pieces of rubber (an old hose cut down the middle is good) and fit one on the bottom friction point and one on the top point. If they move use electrical tape to hold them. These points need to be in the right place because if they are too far up or too far down they wont do the job. If you can get someone to help with tightening the wire you should. Otherwise, slowly bring the branch down while concentrating on the main point of stress. Use your fingers to feel and your ears to listen for cracking. Go down enough so you can hold it in place with a tie of some sort. If you are confident it will go further, use some strong wire like stainless steel or copper and make a loop over the 2 friction points protected with the rubber. Now if you can grab it and squeeze down with one hand, you can use the other hand to wind the wire as you go. Pull down - tighten - pull down - tighten. If you are lucky it will go all the way until it touches itself and you can lock it in that position. If you are worried about cracking or breaking, you will need to leave it until the end of the season (late autumn) and go the rest of the way. Don't prune or wire anything at this point just leave it as is and keep the tree nice and healthy. After one or 2 years you will be able to release it and move to the next part. 🌿
PS Let it dry out before you attack it, water when finished - preferably with a seaweed solution.
 

sorce

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Great specificity! :)

What those pictures of grafts that aren't .....
Pictures of grafts?

Lol!


Sorce
 

River's Edge

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What am I missing?
Just the fact that grafting is a valuable skill and can create fine show trees. Get a professional to show you some of the results in serious collections around the USA. Or travel and check out the ones that have won in International Shows.
The fact that some forms and results are to be avoided is not connected with professional results and correct techniques. Sort of like the difference between a $500 paint job on your car and a professional paint job. It involves a lot more care and attention to detail. From the preparation and execution to the finish!
 

Mike Corazzi

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Well, I know you were jesting... but theft is one of those things that just aren’t funny.

I’ve worked hard over the years to obtain/make a nice collection with A varied collection of styles.
No it isn't. Murayama Bonsai had a big theft last year.
And... it should have been a PM to you.

Sorry.
 

Adair M

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What those pictures of grafts that aren't .....
Pictures of grafts?

Lol!


Sorce
What? You can’t tell they’re grafted? Lol!!! That’s the point!
 

MichaelS

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I’ve found it is a bit stiff.
One more idea I forgot to mention. If it really resists the bend you can use a fine carving tool to remove 1/3 to 1/2 of the heartwood in a long narrow groove/s inside the stem without removing too much bark. Kind of like keyhole surgery. It will then bend very easily but you need to still protect it by wrapping as it will have a tendency to 'fold' rather than bend. And it will take longer to become firm enough to continue your work.
 

Scott B

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I have done it on a white pine of similar size. They are quite flexible but you need to be careful. First prune (only what is in the way and leave everything else) Then wrap the trunk starting well before the bend and finishing well after it. I like to use strips of material from tee shirt or similar. Slightly stretchy but not pure cotton because it rots too fast. Pull it nice and tight and go over it at least three layers over the bend area. Now you need to find an area on the lower part where you can attach the wire which will hold it so it won't slip. Cut 2 pieces of rubber (an old hose cut down the middle is good) and fit one on the bottom friction point and one on the top point. If they move use electrical tape to hold them. These points need to be in the right place because if they are too far up or too far down they wont do the job. If you can get someone to help with tightening the wire you should. Otherwise, slowly bring the branch down while concentrating on the main point of stress. Use your fingers to feel and your ears to listen for cracking. Go down enough so you can hold it in place with a tie of some sort. If you are confident it will go further, use some strong wire like stainless steel or copper and make a loop over the 2 friction points protected with the rubber. Now if you can grab it and squeeze down with one hand, you can use the other hand to wind the wire as you go. Pull down - tighten - pull down - tighten. If you are lucky it will go all the way until it touches itself and you can lock it in that position. If you are worried about cracking or breaking, you will need to leave it until the end of the season (late autumn) and go the rest of the way. Don't prune or wire anything at this point just leave it as is and keep the tree nice and healthy. After one or 2 years you will be able to release it and move to the next part. 🌿
PS Let it dry out before you attack it, water when finished - preferably with a seaweed solution.
Lovely stuff i’ll give it a go this way! I’ll hopefully have an update to this thread with it successfully bent. Thanks so much man

Scott
 
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