JWP first steps

[Balbs]

I’ve spent the better part of 2020 falling in love with pine trees. When I started bonsai a few years, I didn’t get it. Now I’m really starting to. I went to Bonsai West in Littleton, MA a week or two ago and bought this guy. It might be aggressive for a beginner but I’m looking forward to getting to know the tree. so for the past two weeks, I’ve been studying it and I ordered ‘Pines’ from Stone Lantern and I’ve been reading up on them.

My question really is: what are the next steps?

I’ve got a lot of branches from the first whorl, as pictured in the photos. My thought is that some of them have to be removed, or wired out of the way at least so I can see more clearly the branching. I gather that fall is an okay time to wire? But maybe not to prune?

What do you all think? Seems like I usually get way ahead of myself and maybe I am here as well. Just pumped about the tree.

-Marc

 

[roberthu]

I would think about the root spread first. That will help you determine your front. Then think about the trunk line. The current trunk is very straight by the way. Before you remove branches, think about what movement you want. That will help you determine what needs to be left untouched.
Take it slow, watch some photos and videos. Then think about this tree more. You only get to cut each branch once.

 

[discusmike]

Learn to keep it alive for now

 

[sorce]

I don't make it home without cleaning old brown.

It looks like your whorls have a couple years before disaster, still, I'd probably cut the heaviest low branch off, maybe a heavy or 2 in the top.

Enough to let it breath and get the interior lit and that's it.

Then learn it a bit like Mike says.

Sorce

 

[Balbs]

Thank you all! Happy to just learn and keep it alive, and glad to hear you don’t think the whorl is an issue yet. Just trying to formulate a plan in my head. Still not sure when exactly to take those next steps. How do you get from here to selecting primary branches isn’t clear to me.

 

[leatherback]

Cool tree. Looking forward to progressions. I just started a similarly sized Mugo a few weeks ago.

 

[0soyoung]

Just trying to formulate a plan in my head. Still not sure when exactly to take those next steps. How do you get from here to selecting primary branches isn’t clear to me.

In business (or at least the business I was in) we made 5 year plans and modified them monthly. We also had annual plans that we modified weekly. There is a certain amount of similarity in creating bonsai.

A fundamental is to understand that JWP doesn't bud back on bare wood - new buds only appear at the terminal or from the bases of fascicles (needle groups). This means the foliage will, forever, just keep moving farther away from the trunk. So your early priority is to preserve foliage close to the trunk --> wire and maybe prune to assure light gets to this interior foliage. Exactly how you position the foliage and maybe eliminate some branches is going to be influenced by your notions of the bonsai image you are wanting to pursue --> your 5 year plan,

What kind of trunk do you want? I prefer curvy ones, but the bottom section of yours is too thick to bend, I think. You may be able to bend the stuff above, whorl branches or the section of trunk above that. This bottom section of the trunk also has a graft union that you will want to disguise. One way to do that would be to bend branches down so that they obscure the view of this part of the trunk, which means you'll be pursuing a 'mound of foliage' image. If this is your choice, you would want all those whorl branches and little else. Further, no one is ever going to see the nebari, so it doesn't matter.

Otherwise, trunk development is your game for the next few years. A nice thing about pines is that the branch tip with the highest elevation becomes dominant. The handy thing is that in addition to thickening most rapidly, it will suppress the vigor of the branches below = that foliage will not move away from the trunk quite so fast!! To do this, you must first decide if the lower trunk section is about as thick as you want, because it won't thicken much when you chop off the present trunk just above the whorl. So, you may want to do what everyone seems to be encouraging you to do = learn to keep it alive / let it grow. But, meanwhile, think ahead to the day that you do lop off the top. You will be selecting one of those whorl branches to be the next trunk section. You will need at least one 'opposite' whorl branch to be the lowest branch of the eventual bonsai. I say 'opposite' because the simple idea is that you'll have a branch on the outside of the kink or one that appears to be. The possible problem is that the straight forward choice may wind up with the foliage too far away from the trunk. If, instead, this branch came from behind, it could be bent around to put the foliage close to the trunk. So, maybe you will keep two for a while to see how it works out, putting off the decision until having both is beginning to make a knuckle. As to the branch you choose to be the next trunk segment, you want a similar whorl on it, but at a shorter distance from the whorl below than that first whorl is from the ground. Maybe you want to bend this around a bit when wiring it up so that this internode appears shorter than it is. Then you let this sacrifice grow until the second trunk section is nearing the thickness of the base trunk --> voila! tapering trunk. Possibly you now rinse and repeat, possibly you remove the sacrifice and focus on refinement. Its a long way down the road.

Now, with your 5-year plan in mind, give some thought to how the trunk line will look. Ask yourself if the trunk line is likely to look good coming straight out of the ground? Odds are that it will look better if the lower trunk is slanting, instead. The question is leaning which way? The way that will best promote your design goals, of course! The front is always a trade-off between the best nebari, best trunk line, and branch/foliage placement possibilities.

Decide your aims and the answers will become clear.
Make a 5 year plan and adjust it annually
Make a plan for next year and maybe modify that monthly.

 

[Adair M]

@0soyoung, JWP can and will back bud on old bare joint unions. Not as readily as JBP, but it does happen.

Your advice to keep and encourage the growth that’s close to the trunk is correct. It’s easy for JWP to get leggy, and difficult to fix.

 

[0soyoung]

@0soyoung, JWP can and will back bud on old bare joint unions. Not as readily as JBP, but it does happen

Yes, I know. And, if the rare event happens, one should, of course, have a party.

 

[Balbs]

@0soyoung , thanks a ton for taking the time to spell out the thought process. I’m not 100% sure what you mean by the ‘green mound, but I’m fairly sure that’s not what I want. I’d like to try and get some movement in my trunk, so I’ll give some thought to which branches at the whorl will turn into the trunk eventually, and which will be kept for those outside branches. I think I’m okay with the trunk about the size it is, which I realize means a smaller tree overall. I am okay with this too.

should I dig to see the nebari to help find my best front and line? I’ve seen people argue on both sides of that here.

First thing seems like I should wire down some of the branches to better let light in and clean up some of the dead needles. Then, hopefully, I’ll have a clearer idea of what I have to work with.

again, thanks a million!

 

[BuckeyeOne]

Cool tree. Looking forward to progressions. I just started a similarly sized Mugo a few weeks ago.

Why does this tree look so much like a mugo?? Are you sure it's a JWP?

 

[Adair M]

Yes, it’s essential to have a look at the nebari, as it is one of the primary features of any tree. The nebari is always visible when a tree is properly planted on a bonsai pot, so having an attractive nebari is paramount.

on your tree, I can already see a crossing root that needs to be removed.

brush away the litter on top of the root ball, and any extraneous soil so that you can get a view of how the trunk emerges from the soil. A trick many of us useis to cut away the upper rim of the pot, do that the edge if the rim is level with the soil. That will provide you with a view of the nebari that you will have when you pot it in a bonsai pot. Thus will aid in your analysis of the nebari.

 

[Adair M]

Why does this tree look so much like a mugo?? Are you sure it's a JWP?

There are many cultivars of JWP. Some with longer needles than others. This looks like a long leaf JWP to me. It appears to be grafted. Possibly onto Scots pine stock. The stock doesn’t appear to be JBP to me. It could also be grafted onto JWP seedling stock. JWP seedlings May or may not have good needle quality. So, they’ll graft scions of JWP with goid needles onto JWP stock. This creates a tree that won’t show a big difference between stock and graft. Also, long term, some JWP on JBP grafts have failed after 50 Years or so because the stock and scion grow at different rates, causing the graft to fail. A JWP to JWP graft is less likely to have a problem.

 

[leatherback]

Cool tree. Looking forward to progressions. I just started a similarly sized Mugo a few weeks ago.

Why does this tree look so much like a mugo?? Are you sure it's a JWP?

Because it is!

This looks like a long leaf JWP to me. It appears to be grafted. Possibly onto Scots pine stock.

If you were referring to buckeyes post who refers to mine: THe one I showed is a golden variety mugo. I think it is grafted on a scots, but I am not certain. But.. Back to the OP

 

[Adair M]

Because it is!


If you were referring to buckeyes post who refers to mine: THe one I showed is a golden variety mugo. I think it is grafted on a scots, but I am not certain. But.. Back to the OP

I was referring to the tree in the first post. The one @Balbs posted.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Be aware this tree is grafted down low. Do NOT try to bend trunk near graft! A break could happen. Otherwise trunk too straight. Possibly use best bottom side branch eventually as new trunk.

 

[Balbs]

So I finally wired down some of the branches at the first whorl to let some light in as @0soyoung suggested. And I dug cut off some of the pot lip and looked for nebari as @Adair M suggested. Took a bunch of pictures and attached some. Maybe the five year plan is similar to the red-lined virtual image below. One problem is that I didn’t really find any good surface roots and I’m afraid to dig much further. The left side has a strong surface root or two but the right side is bereft as far as I can tell. Wondering what people’s thoughts are now. Leave it alone and let it live? @Adair, I can see the many roots wrapped around the tree that you mentioned. Should those be removed?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would wait with pruning the roots until you repot. That should probably be in spring. When you repot, tease away more soil until you see where, or if the right side has any roots. That will determine your course of action. I'd be inclined to remove the circling roots. But you do not want to take off too many roots. Perhaps @Adair M will offer more advice on this. At any rate, you could safely take off one or two of the highest up of the roots on the left, they clearly won't be used in the final design. I don't know how low I'd go removing roots on the left. In theory you could remove roots all the way down to the level of the roots on the right.

Another "cure" is tilt the trunk, slant it to the left, when you repot. This will bury some of the high roots on the left and bring some of the low roots on the right. It may not be a perfect cure, but it might help.

 

[Balbs]

Thanks @Leo in N E Illinois. This is a good idea and I’ll do just that.

 

[Balbs]

So I enrolled in the Kaikou bonsai school at NE Bonsai and for our first class I took this tree for repotting. The instructor advised me against cutting any roots at this first repot. Unfortunately, there is a pretty large taproot that prohibited me from potting at the angle I wanted, so I had to shift plans a bit, for now anyway. So, here it is, potted in an awesome @sorce pot.
Sorce, the instructor commented several times about how nice the pot was. Hard to disagree!