JWP Nursery Stock

micahmcgrath

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Recently acquired this JWP 'Glauca' from a local nursery and I am very new to JWP's so I am hoping for some guidance. The tree only ran me about $75, so seemed like a decent buy and I was itching to learn more about the species. I did basic work uncovering the nebari, only working the first 2-3 inches of the nursery pot (I cut the excess off the top). Given the base I uncovered, I think a slanted angle is preferable as pictured below.

My questions are many: Do you see any potential with this material? If so, what direction would you take it? When/how should I trunk chop (blue lines)? What should be my first/next step?

Any help or extra information would be greatly appreciated.

IMG_20190522_162158.jpgIMG_20190522_163216.jpgIMG_20190522_162018.jpgIMG_20190522_162021.jpgInkedIMG_20190522_162158_LI.jpgInkedIMG_20190522_163216_LI.jpg
 

Bonsai Nut

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Welcome to the site!

A lot of questions that I will answer in time, but I have a simply question for you - do you know the seasonal care schedule for Japanese white pines? If not, that would be the better place to start...

This is a nice looking pine, but you should be aware that it is a grafted tree. It is a good, low graft, but it is likely that the rootstock is Japanese black pine rootstock, and that there are rather significant dissimilarities in bark characteristics between JWP and JBP. It is something you will want to take into consideration as you move forward with the tree.

Glauca is the generic term for JWP with blue needles. I think it is a really nice looking tree and I would certainly pay $75 for it... assuming I could keep them alive down here :(
 

micahmcgrath

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Thank you!

From what I've seen, JWP's are typically grafted in this way. I picked this tree over others because the graft seemed low and had no obvious lines (yet). What should I be concerned about moving forward?

Is there a specific person's seasonal care schedule you would recommend? Also I found little about JWP tolerance to trunk chopping or when that should be performed. All I found was an article on this site of a progression from JWP nursery stock to bonsai (which was a very impressive tree), but the author didn't note when he performed his major operations. Any recommendations there?
 

Adair M

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Fall is the best time to style any pine. JWP usually get styled in early fall since their needles have fully hardened off (stopped growing) before JBP which have been decandled. So, wait until September.

Once the sheaths at the base of the needle clusters have fallen off, you can begin fertilizing. Again, that means the needles have stopped growing, so you won’t get overly long needles. If you fertilize during the spring, you can get long needles and long internodes.

It will tasks 20 years before the trunk’s bark will begin to start becoming flaky. So, you will have smooth bark for a long time.

They will backbud, but only reluctantly. So don’t plan on it happening! Therefore, try to keep as much interior growth as possible. Don’t let it get leggy, because you can’t count on backbudding to fix it. So, even though they are considered @sliw growing”, you have to pinch back the really strong candles in the spring.

You have a cute little tree. Take your time to figure out the front, the planting angle, etc in order to maximize what you have. Think long and hard before you cut anything off! They don’t grow profusely!

I have a bunch of JWP, and I love them! But treat them gently!
 

Adair M

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Get a good pair of tweezers, and you can clean out the old brown needles. And pull off any old needles pointing down. Be careful not the tear the bark if you pull needles. If you’d rather, instead of pulling them off, you can cut them off very short with sharp scissors. The little stubs will dry up and fall off in a couple weeks.
 

Japonicus

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@Adair M If I were to ever find such a piece at a nursery, I would ask your advice on whether to keep the top as sacrifice
or to get it out of the way this Fall and allow a lowest branch to become the grow out to create girth?
I really don't know which would be most beneficial, both scar/healing, or I assume switching to a lower branch could slow things down
for a couple years, and could be jinned later perhaps. What would you do?
 

Adair M

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Sacrifice branches don’t really fatten the trunk unless they are the tallest part of the tree. So, a long low sacrifice will not be as effective at fattening as a tall sacrifice.

The trunk can be retained as a sacrifice, and it will fatten the whole trunk below. While you’re letting it grow, position a new apex so that when you do finally make the chop, you have the new apex ready to go.

There is something about height that stimulates the tree to send nutrients up to feed the highest part of the tree to grow even higher. And to support that height, it puts on wood on the trunk.

Low horizontal branches, not so much. In general, pines are genetically programmed to grow tall. Outgrow their neighbors to reach the sunlight. They willingly sluff off low branches if they don’t get much sun. So, long low branches, even though they may have a lot of foliage, don’t get the resources to build trunk like a taller sacrifice would.

Look at these sacrifice “trunks” on JBP grown at Telperion Farms:

07CA5696-0240-4FAB-934E-7F62000A7CEF.jpeg

They’re 12 feet tall!
 

Adair M

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@micahmcgrath I love your new addition. Would love to have it. Listen to Adair, he's the JWP whisperer ;)
I do wish I could get him to mentor me on a couple of my trees...
I do have a number of them!

Back in the day, I wasn’t very successful with them. So, I learned how to do JBP.

Now, I think I’m just as good with the whites as I am with the blacks. One key, I believe, is good draining soil. JWP don’t like to have “wet feet”.
 

BonsaiNaga13

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Recently acquired this JWP 'Glauca' from a local nursery and I am very new to JWP's so I am hoping for some guidance. The tree only ran me about $75, so seemed like a decent buy and I was itching to learn more about the species. I did basic work uncovering the nebari, only working the first 2-3 inches of the nursery pot (I cut the excess off the top). Given the base I uncovered, I think a slanted angle is preferable as pictured below.

My questions are many: Do you see any potential with this material? If so, what direction would you take it? When/how should I trunk chop (blue lines)? What should be my first/next step?

Any help or extra information would be greatly appreciated.

View attachment 243477View attachment 243478View attachment 243479View attachment 243480View attachment 243481View attachment 243482
What nursery? I've been wanting a jwp pretty badly
 

micahmcgrath

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I do have a number of them!

Back in the day, I wasn’t very successful with them. So, I learned how to do JBP.

Now, I think I’m just as good with the whites as I am with the blacks. One key, I believe, is good draining soil. JWP don’t like to have “wet feet”.
Adair, thanks for your advice! Would you recommend that I leave the rest of the trunk on to thicken it? Or should I go ahead and do the trunk chop that I drew in the pictures this fall?
 

0soyoung

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Now, I think I’m just as good with the whites as I am with the blacks. One key, I believe, is good draining soil. JWP don’t like to have “wet feet”.
I just don't understand the relevance of JWP roots to a grafted tree that obviously doesn't have JWP feet.
 

Adair M

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I just don't understand the relevance of JWP roots to a grafted tree that obviously doesn't have JWP feet.
Hmm... true... thinking...

(I do have a number of JWP on their own roots, AND grafted ones on various root stock.)

But on ALL of them, I use inorganic soil that drains well!

Back in the day when I had trouble with JWP, I used a bark/Turface/sand mix. MUCH more water retentive than my current mix of akadama/lava/pumice. And back then, I believe all my JWP were grafted on JBP stock. I didn't have any on their own roots.

So, I think my improved success is at least partially due (if not mostly!) to using a better (dryer) soil mix.
 

Adair M

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Adair, thanks for your advice! Would you recommend that I leave the rest of the trunk on to thicken it? Or should I go ahead and do the trunk chop that I drew in the pictures this fall?
That kind of advice is tough to give. Especially not having the tree in Front of me.

The pros for chopping would mean you get more taper. You would get a tree you could style into a more refined appearing bonsai sooner.

The cons are it will take longer to fatten the trunk. In fact, it might prevent it entirely!
 

Japonicus

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That kind of advice is tough to give. Especially not having the tree in Front of me.

The pros for chopping would mean you get more taper. You would get a tree you could style into a more refined appearing bonsai sooner.

The cons are it will take longer to fatten the trunk. In fact, it might prevent it entirely!
For instance @micahmcgrath following are a few pictures of a dwarf EWP, purchased same size at same time ~11 yrs ago or so.
One kept in a pot, one kept in the ground 10 years. Note the dwarf EWP is very slow to gain height, but, in the ground it was superior
at gaining both girth and bark. Both on their own roots, one marred by the nursery label biting in and flattening the bark to be area.
Lesson learned, if it's in the ground, ya still have to treat it like a bonsai, and do some refining or it will get away from you out of proportion
in areas that are undesirable. Pull it every few years and work the roots zone up and in, apply growth check tasks at proper times, wire, un-wire, rewire...bla bla bla.
2 W Pines in ground.jpg
11/2008 Following year I planted the left one in ground, the right one in a pot
DSC_2156.JPG
Last year. Notice how the one in ground has a disproportionate branch way up high. That was stupid!

Now let's take a look at the girth and possible barking up difference regardless of the roots above ground in pot...

DSC_2321.JPG
ugly ducklin ...a little bark above the 1st branch since repotted.

DSC_2302.JPG




DSC_2309.JPG

DSC_2318.JPG
As you can see in this pic I planted it on a tile when I put it in ground '09 but I never lifted the tree ever so often to work the roots into a more dense ball closer in, another stupid.

So the best I would hope you could learn from this @micahmcgrath would be to get back out to Barrett Station, and buy one or 2 for in the ground and do it both ways
learning from my stupids I did on this EWP. I dare say your tree will out grow this dwarf but with better to a better scale than I personally accomplished in 10 years.
 

Adair M

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While it is true you will get more trunk thickening if planted in the ground, it’s also possible to grow some excellent bonsai entirely in containers. Bill Valalvanis has grown several excellent Scots pines, from seedlings, entirely in containers. Mind you, it only took 50 years!
 

micahmcgrath

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For instance @micahmcgrath following are a few pictures of a dwarf EWP, purchased same size at same time ~11 yrs ago or so.
One kept in a pot, one kept in the ground 10 years. Note the dwarf EWP is very slow to gain height, but, in the ground it was superior
at gaining both girth and bark. Both on their own roots, one marred by the nursery label biting in and flattening the bark to be area.
Lesson learned, if it's in the ground, ya still have to treat it like a bonsai, and do some refining or it will get away from you out of proportion
in areas that are undesirable. Pull it every few years and work the roots zone up and in, apply growth check tasks at proper times, wire, un-wire, rewire...bla bla bla.
View attachment 243640
11/2008 Following year I planted the left one in ground, the right one in a pot
View attachment 243641
Last year. Notice how the one in ground has a disproportionate branch way up high. That was stupid!

Now let's take a look at the girth and possible barking up difference regardless of the roots above ground in pot...

View attachment 243643
ugly ducklin ...a little bark above the 1st branch since repotted.

View attachment 243644




View attachment 243645

As you can see in this pic I planted it on a tile when I put it in ground '09 but I never lifted the tree ever so often to work the roots into a more dense ball closer in, another stupid.

So the best I would hope you could learn from this @micahmcgrath would be to get back out to Barrett Station, and buy one or 2 for in the ground and do it both ways
learning from my stupids I did on this EWP. I dare say your tree will out grow this dwarf but with better to a better scale than I personally accomplished in 10 years.
This is good to see and hear. Very helpful advice. I'm currently a student, and move all of my trees many times in a year. For now, growing trees in the ground is not viable for me - as much as I want to. Although seeing this progression makes me wonder if I should expect the same sort of bark line on my tree as the one you planted in the ground. Fortunately mine is lower, but maybe I'll consider that in the design....
 

micahmcgrath

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While it is true you will get more trunk thickening if planted in the ground, it’s also possible to grow some excellent bonsai entirely in containers. Bill Valalvanis has grown several excellent Scots pines, from seedlings, entirely in containers. Mind you, it only took 50 years!
Time - the great equalizer ;)
 

micahmcgrath

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That kind of advice is tough to give. Especially not having the tree in Front of me.

The pros for chopping would mean you get more taper. You would get a tree you could style into a more refined appearing bonsai sooner.

The cons are it will take longer to fatten the trunk. In fact, it might prevent it entirely!
Thanks for laying that out. My concern is the long and un-tapering section from the first branch up to the new leader I plan to choose. To begin to get taper there, I think the trunk chop would be the best option? Thinking there could be wrong ...
 
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