JWP questions

[Adriaan de Beer]

Good day.
My name is Adriaan. I am new to Bonsainut. Fantastic forum.
I live in Johannesburg South Africa.
Been doing bonsai for 10years now so still a novice
I mainly keep pine and maples.
My USDA zone is 10.
I have a few questions that I can not seem to get good answers for regarding JWP.

1.Is it impossible to keep JWP long term if your winters are not cold enough? Where I am it is 1-5degree C at night and 12-18 degrees C during the day on average in winter.
If not, what exactly is the problem? As I understand that the roots need to be below -2degree C for about 8weeks in winter. Why is this?
Could one overcome this by keeping the trees in a walkin freezer in winter for this amount of time?

2. Does this dormancy apply even more so for non grafted JWP?
I have kept grafted JWP for 7 years and they seem fine.

3. Is non grafted JWP foliage more sensitive to intense sunlight than the grafted trees and are their roots more sensitive to overheating than the grafted trees?

4. Is it accurate to say that one only waters a non grafted JWP once the weeds in the pot starts to wilt?
If yes, does this apply all year round? If I follow this method I only water my non grafted tree about every 10 days

Thank you. Looking forward to your responses.

 

[Adair M]

1). JWP are mountain trees. Which means they can tolerate colder temperatures, and in fact need cool winters. You could try using a refrigerator for maybe a month, but be sure it doesn’t dry out.

2). Depends on the root stock.

3). I don’t think it depends on whether they’re grafted or not. Use a non organic soil. That is fast draining. They don’t need to go completely dry between waterings, but they don’t like to have “wet feet”. I don’t fertilize them in the spring, I wait until mid summer to apply fertilizer. The fertilize thru the fall into winter. I try not to “overwater”, but given that my soul is quick draining, I do water every day.

4). See response 3.

 

[Adriaan de Beer]

Hi Adair.
Thank you for the response.
If I want to err on the side of caution regarding summer heat. Would it be sufficient if the JWP get direct(no shade cloth) sun from 7:30am till 10:00 am and then dappled sun under trees for the rest of the day? Maybe 1hour direct sun again just before sunset.

Our mid summer temps average 30-33 degrees C on average.

 

[Adair M]

Hi Adair.
Thank you for the response.
If I want to err on the side of caution regarding summer heat. Would it be sufficient if the JWP get direct(no shade cloth) sun from 7:30am till 10:00 am and then dappled sun under trees for the rest of the day? Maybe 1hour direct sun again just before sunset.

Our mid summer temps average 30-33 degrees C on average.

I think the main thing to watch for is the roots getting hot. I keep mine in full sun. All day.

But I’ll come out and water them when it gets hot. This cools the roots. I hand water, and make sure the water in the hose has run out, it gets super hot in the hose in the sun. So, my watering in mid day with the cool water helps to mitigate the heat generated by the hot sun.

As I said, I use a quick draining soil mix, so the roots don’t stay very wet.

 

[Adriaan de Beer]

I think the main thing to watch for is the roots getting hot. I keep mine in full sun. All day.

But I’ll come out and water them when it gets hot. This cools the roots. I hand water, and make sure the water in the hose has run out, it gets super hot in the hose in the sun. So, my watering in mid day with the cool water helps to mitigate the heat generated by the hot sun.

As I said, I use a quick draining soil mix, so the roots don’t stay very wet.

Thank you for that.
Reason I am concerned about the sun is that I had two pines burn under 20% shade cloth. They were imported from Japan. Look at the black tips on the needles. The needles that came out in South Africa did not seem to burn.

Another question...
When would you recommend would be the best time to import pines from Japan seen that I am in the southern hemisphere and the seasons are in reverse and how should the tree be treated?

 

[Adair M]

As for the importing question, I can’t really help you as I don’t have any experience with that. Sorry! If you have any local connections, as others who may have imported from a Japan.

As for the temporary needle burning...

It can take a tree a season or two to acclimate to a new environment. For example, if I buy a tree that was raised in a Northern climate, and the leaves that are on it were first grown when it was up North, it will be in for a shock when subjected to the heat, humidity, and sun I have. They’ll scorch! But next year, when the new leaves emerge, they’ll be subjected to the higher level of sun and heat, and they’ll do just fine. So, that first year, I’d protect it, and by the second year, it ought to do fine.

That said, certain species do better in some climates than others. JWP do prefer cooler climates than JBP. If your climate is “ just too hot” for JWP, there’s little you can do about it. Again, if there are others in your area who are successful with JWP, learn how they’re doing it.

It’s really difficult for me to help you with your environmental questions since I’ve never been to your part of the world. I live in the Southeast US, and I travel to California, so I know how trees fair in some other climates, but everyone’s climate is unique.

I have always maintained that one of the keys of success in bonsai is to grow what thrives in your climate, and avoid those species that don’t.

 

[Adriaan de Beer]

As for the importing question, I can’t really help you as I don’t have any experience with that. Sorry! If you have any local connections, as others who may have imported from a Japan.

As for the temporary needle burning...

It can take a tree a season or two to acclimate to a new environment. For example, if I buy a tree that was raised in a Northern climate, and the leaves that are on it were first grown when it was up North, it will be in for a shock when subjected to the heat, humidity, and sun I have. They’ll scorch! But next year, when the new leaves emerge, they’ll be subjected to the higher level of sun and heat, and they’ll do just fine. So, that first year, I’d protect it, and by the second year, it ought to do fine.

That said, certain species do better in some climates than others. JWP do prefer cooler climates than JBP. If your climate is “ just too hot” for JWP, there’s little you can do about it. Again, if there are others in your area who are successful with JWP, learn how they’re doing it.

It’s really difficult for me to help you with your environmental questions since I’ve never been to your part of the world. I live in the Southeast US, and I travel to California, so I know how trees fair in some other climates, but everyone’s climate is unique.

I have always maintained that one of the keys of success in bonsai is to grow what thrives in your climate, and avoid those species that don’t.

Thank you Adair.
Appreciate your time.
It does not get higher than 33degrees C here in peak of summer. Would that be acceptable for JWP in your experience?

 

[Adair M]

Thank you Adair.
Appreciate your time.
It does not get higher than 33degrees C here in peak of summer. Would that be acceptable for JWP in your experience?

Yeah, that’s fine. It gets hotter than that where I am, and they thrive for me.

 

[Adriaan de Beer]

Yeah, that’s fine. It gets hotter than that where I am, and they thrive for me.

Thank you.
Appreciate!

 

[Japonicus]

...and 12-18 degrees C during the day on average in winter.

Welcome to BN Adriaan!
Your daytime temps are the issue here with WP and Adair is spot on.

Again, if there are others in your area who are successful with JWP, learn how they’re doing it.

I have always maintained that one of the keys of success in bonsai is to grow what thrives in your climate, and avoid those species that don’t.

+1
@Adriaan de Beer do you see any WP of any type growing in any locations wild say 50 feet (15 meters) or more high
or as landscape specimens, or do they sell them at local nurseries tree farms for locals?
If you answer yes to any of these 3 questions you might be able to pull it off, but the 18ºC daytime Winter temps is
a big problem...64ºF.

in fact need cool winters.

Fact is key.

I would have to buy a refrigerator for each of mine.
There's never enough room in the one in the kitchen for a small plant let alone a bonsai
of most sizes.

 

[MichaelS]

Good day.
My name is Adriaan. I am new to Bonsainut. Fantastic forum.
I live in Johannesburg South Africa.
Been doing bonsai for 10years now so still a novice
I mainly keep pine and maples.
My USDA zone is 10.
I have a few questions that I can not seem to get good answers for regarding JWP.

1.Is it impossible to keep JWP long term if your winters are not cold enough? Where I am it is 1-5degree C at night and 12-18 degrees C during the day on average in winter.
If not, what exactly is the problem? As I understand that the roots need to be below -2degree C for about 8weeks in winter. Why is this?
Could one overcome this by keeping the trees in a walkin freezer in winter for this amount of time?

2. Does this dormancy apply even more so for non grafted JWP?
I have kept grafted JWP for 7 years and they seem fine.

3. Is non grafted JWP foliage more sensitive to intense sunlight than the grafted trees and are their roots more sensitive to overheating than the grafted trees?

4. Is it accurate to say that one only waters a non grafted JWP once the weeds in the pot starts to wilt?
If yes, does this apply all year round? If I follow this method I only water my non grafted tree about every 10 days

Thank you. Looking forward to your responses.

1. Answer yes. The roots needing ''below -2 degrees'' in winter is complete nonsense.
2. No
3. You should grow non grafted ones in training in terra cotta pots which give a cooler root zone due to evaporation. (but I have a large one growing in a large plastic pot and doing fine) Shade the leaves in summer if you think there is a risk of them over heating.
4. You treat your grafted trees just like a black pine with perhaps a bit more protection from strong light in summer.
You should have asked more questions.....
As I said keep them in terracotta, always use a good aeration layer (so called drainage layer) and don't give them too much root room. If you do, overwatering can be a problem. There should be no more than about 1 inch between the pruned roots and the inside wall of the container. Even less is ok.
They suffer (for me) from chlorosis during winter). I have helped this a lot by acidifying my mix and using a trace element drench. Make sure the pH of your mix is about 5 when you make it up. If your trees always have healthy mychorrizae around the roots they will always be healthy. If not, you will have trouble. Mycos are encouraged by bright light, low phosphorous, and low feeding in general, and a fast draining mix.
During summer, I water them everyday usually unless the weather is quite cool or wet and then I may miss. When really hot like the other day (43C) I watered them twice and sprayed the leaves every hour even though they are under shade cloth at the moment. My winter temps don't get below 3C and most of the time 7 at night. Days are like yours, mostly about 15. They are completely dormant then and remain so just like any other tree.

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[0soyoung]

They suffer (for me) from chlorosis during winter).

Actually not. They naturally turn yellow due to a build up of xanthophylls - an adaptation to cold/alpine winter climates.

 

[just.wing.it]

Welcome to the Nut House......!

 

[MichaelS]

Actually not. They naturally turn yellow due to a build up of xanthophylls - an adaptation to cold/alpine winter climates.

Actually yes. I have pics of White pine in Japan (taken in winter) which are perfectly green. If they are yellow they are suffering. I have managed to rectify it as mentioned above to about 75% improvement. I also have a large one in a pot growing pure bark which does not yellow at all and a layering from that tree in a different mix which does.
Not that the above discredits the validity of your post!

 

[Adair M]

Actually yes. I have pics of White pine in Japan (taken in winter) which are perfectly green. If they are yellow they are suffering. I have managed to rectify it as mentioned above to about 75% improvement. I also have a large one in a pot growing pure bark which does not yellow at all and a layering from that tree in a different mix which does.
Not that the above discredits the validity of your post!

It depends. Some JWP yellow, and some don’t.

 

[Adriaan de Beer]

Thanks for all the information gentlemen. Always interesting to get different views and information. I have kept grafted JWP for about 7years successfully, that is why I decided to bring 3 nice developed trees from Japan. Two
was non grafted and one grafted. One I lost due to over watering as I kept them the same as the grafted JWP. I guess they will take a good couple of years to adjust to the reversed seasons as we are in the southern hemisphere and I have learned that our UV index in South Africa is much higher than in Japan so I need to protect the trees till they have made new needles that is acclimated to our sun. Photos of the trees are attached.

 

[Adriaan de Beer]

Thanks for all the information gentlemen. Always interesting to get different views and information. I have kept grafted JWP for about 7years successfully, that is why I decided to bring 3 nice developed trees from Japan. Two
was non grafted and one grafted. One I lost due to over watering as I kept them the same as the grafted JWP. I guess they will take a good couple of years to adjust to the reversed seasons as we are in the southern hemisphere and I have learned that our UV index in South Africa is much higher than in Japan so I need to protect the trees till they have made new needles that is acclimated to our sun. Photos of the trees are attached.

 

[Japonicus]

@Adriaan de Beer your photos did not attach.
If you made use of the attach files link what size are your pics?
You can also drag/drop or copy/paste in many cases.

 

[Adriaan de Beer]

Sorry, photos did not load.