JWP ugly graft quandary

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I was given this JWP two years ago. It’s a very gangly garden tree and my first thought was to wire it up as a literati but it has an incredibly ugly and lumpy graft which further reading suggests is unlikely to improve with time. If this is the case it would seem there are two possible options open to me. I could raise the soil level to minimise the visible graft and continue with the literati idea or I could raise the tree to expose more root and with a small angle change could work towards a cascading tree covering the graft/trunk join with foliage.

Any thoughts or ideas? Binning it isn’t an option
 

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penumbra

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If it were mine I would plant it deeper and grow it out a bit. It is a hideous graft but that is the problem with grafts. I have dozens of plants that could never be a bonsai because of the ugly grafts.
 
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If it were mine I would plant it deeper and grow it out a bit. It is a hideous graft but that is the problem with grafts. I have dozens of plants that could never be a bonsai because of the ugly grafts.
If I was to plant it deeper would you expect it to root from higher up the rootstock?
 

0soyoung

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Literati is not creative - just a lazy cop out; just accepting that the lanky mess you have right now is all that can be. Literati are generally about interesting trunk movement. This has none. BUT, if you've got clear plans on how you make an interesting trunk from this, by all means go for it. You could always heap mossy substrate to bury the union. But, IMHO, just about anything you do has a high risk of focusing attention on the base of the tree, distracting from anything you create with the trunk. If it had lots of branching down low, there would be many options, but you just don't.

I don't know what the right answer is, but I'll prate along giving you my thought process, pretending that this tree is mine.

The first idea I have is that you could graft to make low branches. Since it is so long and lanky, you might do this by bending one (or more) of those branches down so that you can make approach grafts. These will take at least one year (likely more), but are more likely to succeed than trying to graft free scions, especially down low on a trunk like this, because the auxin from all the foliage above tends to discourage low growth. But, lets suppose you tried approach grafting and it didn't work out --> you're left with some ugly scars/damage = so what, there's already the unsightly graft union 'down there'. IOW, it is a fairly low risk option = just lost time at worst. 3ef86f56d8e5ba4db4009fd84561f172.jpg

You are quite correct that the challenge is how to obscure the graft union or fool one's eye into not noticing it. Obscuring it with foliage is one way. In the extreme one would do this by making it into a 'rock' of foliage - JWP bonsai are often done in this style. In a lesser degree, one can disguise trunk faults with foliage across the fault. It is a good way to make a long thin trunk look like two more appealing separate pieces. However, your graft union is so low that it would be odd for a single branch to be that low. So I think you're pretty much boxed into making a foliage 'rock' if this is the direction you take. Further, if you pursue this foliage 'rock' idea, you could develop it into an exposed root design (you would plant it on a column of course media and slowly expose the roots over the course of several years) which is common with 'foliage rocks'. I suppose it is a trite design for a JWP, but I like it nonetheless.

14336286efeab10c43318dcda6a7f5c6.jpg b204e4269c53f483067989156e46e8d2.jpg 743f087192f70e693ba564ae844193b1.jpg db968a768288124df9218d0731a4c0c4.jpg

Another possibility is to plant it at a shallow angle, with the trunk going away to the back of the view so that you effectively only see the root stock. Then you bend that trunk up a bit so it become visible. One's (minds)eye perceives a taper in the invisible space.. To pull this off, it will also help to have the trunk curve in the fashion of a corkscrew (a 3D bend) instead of simply straight up toward the front of the view (a 2D bend). You'll have to see for yourself if other angles can affect this or a similar trompe-l'œil. Keep in mind that later on you could strip bark, exposing wood across the union to further obscure its existence - a trick I have not yet done myself but which appeals to me because it creates an interesting feature that could make an ugly distraction into attractive focal point. Kimura made a JWP bonsai that opened my 'eyes to these possibilities.

And, as you've realized, there are straight forward possibilities of creating a cascade. In the straight forward fashion you could simply envision lopping off everything but that lowest right branch that will end up bearing all the foliage of your cascade. That is, you'll plant it with the present trunk a bit closer to horizontal and that low right branch will be dangling below (from what it is now) and it alone will ultimately bear all the foliage of your bonsai. However, this styling tends to make the bare lower trunk (and the graft union) the focus of the composition, just as the classic exposed root with a foliage rock does. That could be cool, but it will be a long time because you will need years, not only to thicken the trunk, but to develop the mature bark that would really make this work. You'll be using the other branches as sacrifices - there just for the purpose of thickening the trunk and (later) growing bark. Maybe you utilize these to make a more formal cascade in the meantime (meanyears, I mean 🙃).
fcbb1ab0aadaf9d9c6df1965c0a4eb00.jpg

I suggest that you envision a short term possibility that will open the doors to any of the things you hope to make of this tree. Don't accept that what it is now is all that you can hope for. Analyze the problem(s), look at all the pics of JWP bonsai you can find (Google photos, YouTube, etc.) and try to envision how you would make your tree into something like them. Make a plan for what you want it to be in 5 years. say, then execute the first year plan and adjust your it in response to what happened 'this year'. It will be a long time together.

I've found much of recently displayed Chinese stylings very interesting and amenable to what you've got. For example, this 'out-of-the-box' Chinese styling involves bending the trunk and placing foliage low. The foliage in front would obscure the graft union from sight. And, is it a cascade, or is it an upright design? I find it fascinating and beautiful. It is the magical touch of the unexpected! I love the Japanese JWP foliage rock forms, but this !

28eff79776109e9acad060b6b12d6ef6.jpg

This is something that you could make. The important thing is that you learn how to do it with this tree you have. Picasso made a lot of shit, but I think he learned something from every one. That is what is important for you to do with this tree. Learn something from the process even if you cannot artistically say anything meaningful (yet).

You've got three basic problems at this point.
  1. a straight, uninteresting trunk
  2. a graft union that will need to be obscured in some fashion
  3. a thin, uninteresting trunk
What are you going to do to solve these problems? What are you aiming to make of it (long term)? What do you also need to do to get it there? What if your plan A doesn't work? Will that be the end of the road? Why would it be the end of the road? Don't do something that will seal its fate until there is no other choice. So, wadda ya gunna do now?

This, IMHO, is the 'fun' of bonsai.

Good luck
And enjoy.
 
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Shibui

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Air layering is nearly certain to fail.
I'd put it more as 'air layer may not produce roots'. 'Zushio' is a JWP variety that is grown almost exclusively as cuttings. I can get a small percentage of JWP cuttings to strike, even with my rudimentary propagating setup. I have had successful layers of JBP so layering conifers is possible and should be an option for JWP.

My preferred option for the tree in question would be to grow it out for a few years. The tree has very little to work with at the moment - hence the difficulty making choices - but further growth and development could change all that.
 

0soyoung

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Yes, possible.
Place a girdle immediately above this tree's graft union and wait. Odds strongly in favor of the outcome being a dead tree, IMHO.

I assumed that @mwar15 meant girdling the trunk (or applying a tourniquet to it) immediately above the union. I apologize of this was really just suggesting that @Sputnik 184 try layering a branch or part of one.

@Sputnik 184, could also try to root some cuttings.

All good projects while @Sputnik 184 figures out what his aims are for this tree.
 
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Thank you all for your helpful and encouraging suggestions.

@Osoyoung Love the idea of that Chinese styling you came up with. The “rock of foliage” idea appeals to me more than the literati which was probably my reaction to desperation. My only concern is still the lack of low branching. It would be helpful if the lowest branch emerged closer to the graft than it does at present. Your suggestion of using approach grafts could achieve this but I’ve never grafted pines so that in itself will be a challenge.

@Shibui How do you do your JWP cuttings?

I have a feeling I’m going to learn a lot from this project.
 

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Any thoughts or ideas? Binning it isn’t an option
I think you did a good job identifying the challenges with this tree :) When you say "gangly" what you really mean is "weak with long internodes". Ultimately it is this weakness that concerns me most. With a healthy tree you have plenty of options. With a weak tree the focus needs to be on saving the tree.

Not sure where the weakness is coming from - whether it is a weak graft union, weak roots, or lack of sun. Regardless, the soil looks wet - with algae and moss growing on the surface indicating that it is staying wet continuously. I don't know when the tree has been repotted last, but make sure that there is no old soil still clinging to the root ball.

Your biggest problem with the tree outside of the graft union is the trunk line, which is composed of perfectly straight sections with almost no taper. If it were my tree I would reduce the main trunk back to the first branch node, eliminate the weakest of the three branches, and then decide which of the two remaining branches would become my new trunk. It is hard to tell, but it almost appears that one of the lower branches is stronger (has more needles and shorter internodes) than your current longest branch. You might be able to lean the trunk in a severe angle in the opposite direction, laying the graft union over so that it is partially covered in soil, and build a new tree from the lowest branch.

step1.jpg

Note in this image it just shows the roughest pruning cuts. It is critical that you wire the branches ASAP to give them character and movement, as well as lay out the secondary and tertiary branches.
 
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Yet another possibility to add to my quandary. The soil is pretty wet and not an ideal mix but we are in the middle of a UK winter. I’m loath to disturb its roots again at the moment but covering the soil to protect from rain might be an option. My only concern about this styling choice is whether the tree is strong enough to take this amount of foliage reduction at the moment. It was very much weaker when I was given it two years ago and it has actually gained some strength and foliage growth in that time. Would a small shortening of growth encourage any inner budding without reducing its needle area too much do you think? I’m very much a beginner with JWP. Most of my pine experience has been with our European natives.
 

penumbra

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Based upon the great ideas that have presented here, and the trees flagging health, the two are worlds apart. If the tree is worth saving, put it in the ground for at least 2-3 years. Forget about it and move on to something else. Revisit this tree later. You are decades from having a decent bonsai, but in the ground it might eventually become a nice ornamental.
Or, you can do as previous poster suggests. ^^^^
Right now you just don't have anything substantial to work with. IMHO
 
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Based upon the great ideas that have presented here, and the trees flagging health, the two are worlds apart. If the tree is worth saving, put it in the ground for at least 2-3 years. Forget about it and move on to something else. Revisit this tree later. You are decades from having a decent bonsai, but in the ground it might eventually become a nice ornamental.
Or, you can do as previous poster suggests. ^^^^
Right now you just don't have anything substantial to work with. IMHO
Yes! let it grow in the ground with long sacrifice branches will help to disguise the graft union for sure, I don think buring it would help in any mean, the part under the soil will not develop bark (wont send any roots also) creating inverse taper if you want to change the angle in the future
 

Shibui

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How do you do your JWP cuttings?
Best results for any pine sp is to use juvenile growth for cuttings. Easier to get juvenile growth from young seedlings but some species will produce juvenile shoots when pruned hard. Millions of P. radiata are grown down here each year for agroforestry from superior stock trees that are regularly pruned to produce lots of juvenile shoots.

Not all species will do that reliably. I still get a low but consistent strike rate using 1 and 2 year old shoots taken in winter and spring when I'm pruning the trees. I have just (late spring/early summer here now) potted up some rooted mugho cuttings from pieces taken at last winter's annual trim.
 
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Best results for any pine sp is to use juvenile growth for cuttings. Easier to get juvenile growth from young seedlings but some species will produce juvenile shoots when pruned hard. Millions of P. radiata are grown down here each year for agroforestry from superior stock trees that are regularly pruned to produce lots of juvenile shoots.

Not all species will do that reliably. I still get a low but consistent strike rate using 1 and 2 year old shoots taken in winter and spring when I'm pruning the trees. I have just (late spring/early summer here now) potted up some rooted mugho cuttings from pieces taken at last winter's annual trim.
Thanks for that advice. A convenient time for me to try then. How many needles do you leave and do you have to use lights or misting? Soil mix? Any advice however obvious it might seem would be useful.
 

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Have you thought of shaving down the fat edges of the root stock…maybe over a few seasons to get the merger of the union in check?
 
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Have you thought of shaving down the fat edges of the root stock…maybe over a few seasons to get the merger of the union in check?
Interesting idea but I suspect the rootstock may continue to swell disproportionately even if done over a few seasons.
 
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