Kagiri nishiki Japanese maple

macdad

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All,

I was walking through a local garden center yesterday and say this interesting Japanese maple. The label said it was a Kagiri Nishiki japanese maple. Quite beautiful with small leaves. It appears that it buds back rather prolifically. Has anyone used this particular variant of Japanese maple? Would it make a good candidate for Bonsai?

I am shopping around and looking for subjects to purchase for next spring :)
 

GrimLore

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There is a couple of varieties, one is red and the others I am not sure of. The plant name you should search on is Acer palmatum but I would ask him the variety before I purchased as you may or may not like the color. Simply stated - yea they can be a nice Bonsai, really depends on what color leaf you like. ;)

Grimmy
 

augustine

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You'll probably find the plant is grafted and need to determine whether it will work in the long run or not.

Grafted maples are used but only good grafts will yield a good result.
 

macdad

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I understand regarding the graft. Every Acer Palmatum that I have seen is grafted. Some look nicer than others. Here is the plan, if I purchase one. I would most likely plan to plant it in the yard and air layer what I wanted to develop into bonsai due to the graft issues. What issues do you see with this plan, other than it will take a couple more years to develop???

If I air layer a portion above the graft, it should retain it's color, leaf size etc, right? I guess my question is, what can I expect if I grow them from their own root stock instead of from the grafted root stock? Would the air layered portion be less hardy?
 

GrimLore

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It is my understanding and experience with a few different grafts that if I grow them out whatever push I get below the graft is far different then what is above the graft. I am content with that as they are purely decorative plants in pots and anything below the graft or above we are able to control make look like darn nice trees.
I also cannot say what happens if you attempt to "air layer" or Start a new root system above the graft... The reason I won't try it is they are at least ten years old and some are twenty. The initial cost was enough that I don't see it wise to experiment at this stage. They are all in the 3-4 foot range, purchased to be ornamental, potted as ornamental and will remain so as they are nice additions to our garden(S)
On the cut questions I would be highly interested to here from some of the pro's here ;)

Grimmy
 

gergwebber

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If I air layer a portion above the graft, it should retain it's color, leaf size etc, right? I guess my question is, what can I expect if I grow them from their own root stock instead of from the grafted root stock? Would the air layered portion be less hardy?

The air-layer will retain the genetic characteristics of the top. I would do it and see what the top does. You will be giving it great living conditions anyway right?

There are thousands of maple cultivars bred for their aesthetic characteristics. I do not know which ones grow well on their own roots, and perhaps even the breeders do not know as there may be only one or none existing on their own roots. Often, grafting in maples is a means to achieve economic convenience, faster tree turn over, and long term reliability. It would take years and tons of money to test every new cultivar on its own roots, so why not just stick it on plain old A. palmatum to ensure a known amount of reliability?

You need to talk the the person here on Bnut who has the trees on their own roots. Bill V? or Mach 5 may know.
 

macdad

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It is my understanding and experience with a few different grafts that if I grow them out whatever push I get below the graft is far different then what is above the graft. I am content with that as they are purely decorative plants in pots and anything below the graft or above we are able to control make look like darn nice trees.
I also cannot say what happens if you attempt to "air layer" or Start a new root system above the graft... The reason I won't try it is they are at least ten years old and some are twenty. The initial cost was enough that I don't see it wise to experiment at this stage. They are all in the 3-4 foot range, purchased to be ornamental, potted as ornamental and will remain so as they are nice additions to our garden(S)
On the cut questions I would be highly interested to here from some of the pro's here ;)

Grimmy

I don't blame you, Grimmy. I wouldn't air layer them either if I were you.

The air-layer will retain the genetic characteristics of the top. I would do it and see what the top does. You will be giving it great living conditions anyway right?

There are thousands of maple cultivars bred for their aesthetic characteristics. I do not know which ones grow well on their own roots, and perhaps even the breeders do not know as there may be only one or none existing on their own roots. Often, grafting in maples is a means to achieve economic convenience, faster tree turn over, and long term reliability. It would take years and tons of money to test every new cultivar on its own roots, so why not just stick it on plain old A. palmatum to ensure a known amount of reliability?

You need to talk the the person here on Bnut who has the trees on their own roots. Bill V? or Mach 5 may know.

Thanks for your insight, gergwebber! I am considering giving it a try. If they have them next spring, then I will have to sweet talk my wife a little to let me buy one. Their prices were pretty good compared to other stores around... Maybe I can get one of these and a standard Acer Palmatum. It will take me all winter to convince her of that. She is still struggling with the concept of buying a larger tree and cutting it down to 6". I don't know why :)
 
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Dan W.

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As you've said, it will be hard to convince your wife... but the trees will likely be cheaper this time of year than in spring. Possibly not... but it's worth a try. lol
 

Neli

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Have you thought why trees are grafted? the reason behind it? it is for the root system that is much stronger. There is lots of info out there that says, that your tree will not be as strong as the grafted one. some times they are grafted to get the exact variety, since they dont always come true by seed, but most of the time it is for the strong root system, that keeps the tree healthy.
 

drew33998

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Have you thought why trees are grafted? the reason behind it? it is for the root system that is much stronger. There is lots of info out there that says, that your tree will not be as strong as the grafted one. some times they are grafted to get the exact variety, since they dont always come true by seed, but most of the time it is for the strong root system, that keeps the tree healthy.

Neli, What were your experiences with grafted maples in Japan? I am curious to know if they use grafted trees or if they grow them on their own roots. Thanks
 

Neli

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Many trees in Japan are grafted...pines, maples...wisteria, and that is to make them strong and disease resistant. but I have seen some that are not grafted too. like the primary varieties. Trident, some green leafed maples...it seems they are strong on their own roots or maybe come true from seed.
 

macdad

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Have you thought why trees are grafted? the reason behind it? it is for the root system that is much stronger. There is lots of info out there that says, that your tree will not be as strong as the grafted one. some times they are grafted to get the exact variety, since they dont always come true by seed, but most of the time it is for the strong root system, that keeps the tree healthy.

Neli, that is exactly why I asked the question... For those of you that have created Japanese Maple Bonsai from cuttings or air layering, Have you noticed the plant to be significantly less hardy to desease or pests?

I also assumed that sometimes trees are grafted to dwarf them. I thought this would be especially true with Japanese maples, since people like to place them close to the house and treat them more as a shrub.
 

Neli

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Neli, that is exactly why I asked the question... For those of you that have created Japanese Maple Bonsai from cuttings or air layering, Have you noticed the plant to be significantly less hardy to desease or pests?

I also assumed that sometimes trees are grafted to dwarf them. I thought this would be especially true with Japanese maples, since people like to place them close to the house and treat them more as a shrub.
The maples are grafted to improve vigor, and health issues, I dont think they can be dwarfed, if anything they become a bit larger, since they are grafted on more vigorous base. I think the reaction of the tree to stress condition is improved.
I have noticed something very interesting in Japan, when itoigawa juniper is grafted on other type base juniper. Some how the new foliage after the graft takes becomes different, and in between the two varieties in appearance. I took some photos of that...found it rather interesting.
Not sure if it is genetically affected or is the vigor that affects the new growth appearance.
 
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63pmp

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When you are discussing cultivars you are discussing trees with subtle genetic differences from the species tree. They arise from poor chromosomal division during the develop of sexual organs in flower development, plant cultivars are genetic abnormalities that are not fatal to that particular plant. (Witches brooms are similar, but the abnormality occurs in a branch meristem). The extent of these abnormalities can be difficult to predict. Some abnormalities will not allow seeds to develop and grow, while many abnormal plants may not show any difference to the species plant, but may be a little slow to develop or are more disease prone.

The abnormalities may prevent proper root development, or stop adventitious roots from from cuttings, or change leaf color etc. (There are species of plants that will not flower as cuttings, but will as grafts)

The genetic blend for each cultivar is unique, because it arose from a mistake. To propagate a cultivar by seed ruins the genetic code of the cultivar, so it is now different. So if you have a kashima maple and propagate it by seed, the seedlings cannot be called kashima, even though they look similar.

So cultivars to remain true have to be propagated by cutting, layering or bioengineering, so that they are exact genetic copies of the original. For ease, grafting wins hands down as it easy, quick and has a high success rate. Also some cultivars are just too abnormal to produce roots or survive on them for long, so grafting is a good means of keeping that cultivar alive.

Sometimes grafting will dwarf a plant, usually when cross grafting species. Sometimes it speeds up development, Brent Walston thinks that grafting speeds up shishigashira growth.

Many horticultural and agricultural plants are grafted because the cultivar is not resistant to particular diseases, eg wine grapes are grafted to a root stock that is resistant to phylloxera, a subterranean aphid. Even though the cultivar does well on it's own roots, it has low resistant to these aphids.

So there are many reasons why plants are grafted, though usually it's for specific reasons. For Japanese maple these plants are desired for their interesting and pretty foliage, many of these cultivars may not form roots as cutting or layers, or they are weak on them, so grafting is the best method of propagating. Since these are predominantly garden plants, it doesn't matter if there is a graft.

There are some JM cultivars that grow very well on their own roots, such as shishigashira, kashima, kiyohime, deshojo, shideshojo.

A bonsai maple without an obvious graft on the trunk is more desirable then one that has, hence the interest in cutting grown maples.

For a longtime the standard response to growing JM on their own roots was it can't be done, their not strong, etc, but this is not necessarily true, it depends on the cultivar The more people who attempt to propagate different cultivars by cuttings or layers, and talk about it, the broader the propagating base becomes for all of us.

In regards to the opening post about Kagiri nishiki cultivar. I would think it unlikely to be successful on its own roots as its is just too different from the original species plant. But you don't know until you try, so try a layer on a small sub-branch, one that doesn't matter too much, and let us know how it went.



Paul
 

macdad

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Paul,

Excellent response! Thank you for the information and your insight regarding the specific cultivar Kagiri Nishiki.

I haven't purchased anything yet :) Just researching for next spring. It just so happens that the Nishiki was a bit cheaper than I normally find with Japanese maples around here, $75. It was at least 1.5" diameter at the base as well.

Considering the risk that it may not root on its own, I may look for one with a nice graft that is low on the tree and simply chop it. Then I think I'll get a standard Acer Palm. and attempt layering with that.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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First, I would guess 75% or more of Japanese maples would grow quite well on their own roots. The reason commercial propagators graft JM is for speed, and volume. Using 3 year old understock, you can have a saleable tree in 18 to 24 months by grafting, ready to sell in a 1 gallon nursery can. Cuttings tend to be smaller, one would have to grow a cutting 2 to 4 years to reach a 1 to 2 gallon nursery can size for sales. It is for profit reasons that at least half of the JM are grafted. The dissecta group of JM, Acer palmatum var dissecta is mostly weeping trees, and they were routinely grafted onto standards, to avoid having to stake a plant for years to get an upright tree. The dissecta group have very deeply cut lobes, making a 5 lobed leaf almost look like a compound leaf with 5 blade like leaflets. Most dissecta maples would be prostrate ground covers without grafting onto a standard A. palmatum seedling. Both the standard upright and the dissecta groups of JM there are individual cultivars that do not root easily from cuttings. But others root just fine. It is hit and miss, with more that will root than will not. Grafting had to be learned to propagate the weeping JMs, and was found to be a quick way to propagate all the JMs, so it became the nurseryman's method of choice, rather than a strict necessity, cuttings will work for a large percentage.

Almost all cultivars will root when air layered. Even reluctant to root by cutting cultivars will eventually root by air layering.

The website I list with information I have no connection to, other than I have bought from them, their trees are not very expensive, and you get healthy, but young (small-ish) plants. I recommend going with 2 year old or older grafts. The one year old grafted stock is healthy, but not firmly fused, I have had the jarring bumps of shipping kill off the grafted scion, leaving only understock on the 1 year old grafts. Their 2 year old grafts are still pretty cheap, and they are more fully fused, the scion and understock will not separate easily anymore.

For Bonsai purposes I would rather buy plants propagated by cuttings, either from Bill Valvanis or from Evergreen Gardenworks, Brent Walston, or from other bonsai propagators. The grafted maples are great for garden plants, or to pick up as propagation stock to root your own for bonsai. But generally the grafts are too crude, not well matched, that they can't be used for bonsai. A few do great grafting work, Bill Valvanis, Brent Walston, Chris & Lisa Kirk at Teleperion Farms, these three and the guys at WeeTree do make nice neat, low grafts that are usable for bonsai.

About Kagiri Nishiki
from http://japanesemaplesandevergreens.com/
here is what they say:
Acer palmatum 'Kagiri Nishiki' - (Kagiri Nishiki Japanese Maple)

* Full sun to Part shade * Zones 5-8 * height at 10 years - 18' tall by 10' wide
Awards: First Class Certificate from Royal Horticultural Society.

Acer palmautum 'Kagiri Nishiki' The Kagiri Nishlki Japanese maple has aesthetically pleasing variegation. Medium sized leaves are pink on the edges, surrounding a light green center. in the summer, the Kagirl Nishikl Japanese maple has a creamy green color, giving an overall effect of light blue-green. The Kagirl Nishikl Japanese maple grows in a small upright open form and serves as a magnificent alternative to "Butterfly" for a container specimen.

acer-palmatum-kagiri-nishiki-2-year-graft.jpg
 
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Leo in N E Illinois

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By the way. With a size at 10 years of 18 feet by 10 feet, the cultivar Kagiri Nishiki does not qualify as a dwarf. It is recommended for containers, and being in a container it would be easy enough to keep the size down. But technically it is not a genetic dwarf.
 
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