Kanorin's "Azalea 2020-2025" entry

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Yes, I winter my Satsuki and Kurume type azaleas in a well house, with ZERO light. A fan, pointed at a wall to disperse the breeze, the fan runs 24 hr / 7 days a week. Cheap 7 or 9 inch diameter fan from a box store. Buy extras in July, so if one craps out in January, you have a replacement on hand. They are cheap fans, they do crap out in the high humidity of the well house.

Key about winter with no light. The temperature MUST be kept below 40 F. This is key. As soon as temps increase above 40F (+4 C ) the metabolism of the azalea increases, a metabolic consumption of sugars increases, and eventually (weeks or months, not just a single day) the azalea health will decline because it burned up too much of its stored energy (sugars) over winter. When kept below 40 F, below +4 C, the metabolism is slow enough that the exhaustion of sugars is not a problem. In addition, you do not want the tree to try growing while in the dark, as this will result in leggy, pale, etiolated foliage, that would have to be pruned off after it is out of storage.

I have been wintering my Satsuki in the dark well house for over 20 years. It works. Cold storage in the dark is okay, as long as it stays COLD enough, and of course, that it doesn't get too cold.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks @Leo in N E Illinois. I knew I could rely on you for an in depth horticultural explanation.

JFMI Can you share your overwintering watering strategy?

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

My well house is very humid, things stay wet. I usually water about once a month. So from November to April, I might water 5 times. I use the garden hose attached to a sink in the basement and run it out to the well house. Takes 5 minutes.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks Leo!
best DSD sends

 

[Kanorin]

Probably the last update on this one for the year. A brief recap:

I killed my first contest azalea within about 30 days with a combination of too much sun-too little moisture retention in the media.

In early July I picked up a new one - a "Joseph Hill" and cut off one of the two "twin trunks" on this tree. Not sure if they were connected or not. Then in early August I cut maybe just 15% of the branches to get rid of some obvious problem spots and be able to see into the trunk to start planning a design.

I've kept this new guy (It's a 'Joseph Hill,' so just assuming) in it's nursery pot in a spot with about 3-4 hours of late morning sunlight.

The goals for this second contest azalea for this year were to:
A) Keep it alive for longer than the first one
B) Study it's growth habits to get a design idea going into spring 2021.

October update:
First goal, achieved! It's still alive and strong. Maybe too strong? Is this guy about to push out a second flush of flowers?? There's bonus points for that, right @Pitoon ?


Also, even though I did much lighter pruning than most this year - because it was probably too late in the year to do a heavy prune...and remember that first goal - I did get some back-budding on many of the branches that I did prune back. That Includes the branch at lower-left below, which might be a decent start to a semi-cascade. Probably will repot at a slight slant too so it doesn't come out of the substrate at 90.

 

[Harunobu]

It already grew the flower buds. This variety will probably flower mid May 2021 or later. I see you have some new shoots where you pruned and some backbudding where the branch was bald (and shade removed). So yeah you can observe how it wakes up in spring. And then either prune during/after flowering.

 

[Kanorin]

I decided to overwinter this one heeled in (dug about an 8 inch deep hole) and mulched over - less than 6 inches from the foundation on the eastern side of my house. It gets about 2 hours of late morning sun there and probably a bit of heat from the house. If this was a satsuki, I'd probably have put it in the garage or crawl space...we'll see how it does!

It already grew the flower buds. This variety will probably flower mid May 2021 or later. I see you have some new shoots where you pruned and some backbudding where the branch was bald (and shade removed). So yeah you can observe how it wakes up in spring. And then either prune during/after flowering.

Yes, you are probably right about the flowering time - I think this variety is one of the later azaleas to flower. I should also get this thing out of the nursery soil this year (looks like it's in mainly pine bark) - so what I'm mulling over is when to time the chop and repot.

Here's what I'm thinking for spring 2021 chop and repot. As always, feel free to point out the weak points in my plans.

Severe chop back before the buds start moving - maybe around the first week of March (Avg lows are 32 degrees F, avgs highs are 51 degrees F). Maybe I should go even earlier? I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to leave just a few of the new (short) shoots that formed last fall. I'm worried that after a severe chop so early in the season, without a bit of green to help keep pulling water and sugars up the vasculature, it might not wake up.

After the chop, I'm thinking to wait a few weeks to repot: probably until a few sets of new leaves have hardened off. Does that seem like a good choice? That might be in mid April or so? In my St. Louis climate, it's probably dangerous to wait too long to repot - by the first week of June, average highs are 80-85F - and for the last 3 years it has hit at least 93F already. Last year, my first azalea died during the first week of June when we had 5 days in a row over 90F and I had it out in almost full sun. This year, the new azalea will be in better soil (85% kanuma / 10% pumice / 5% pine bark) and will be limited to morning sun.

It's also important for me to remember that since it was just $30, it's ok to be a little on the bold side. I learned a lot from killing my first one!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I decided to overwinter this one heeled in (dug about an 8 inch deep hole) and mulched over - less than 6 inches from the foundation on the eastern side of my house. It gets about 2 hours of late morning sun there and probably a bit of heat from the house. If this was a satsuki, I'd probably have put it in the garage or crawl space...we'll see how it does!

Joseph Hill azaleas are pretty darn hardy, so I wouldn't be too concerned about overwintering in the area next to your house. I would protect it from the prevailing winds, just in case.

Here's what I'm thinking for spring 2021 chop and repot. As always, feel free to point out the weak points in my plans.

Severe chop back before the buds start moving - maybe around the first week of March (Avg lows are 32 degrees F, avgs highs are 51 degrees F). Maybe I should go even earlier? I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to leave just a few of the new (short) shoots that formed last fall. I'm worried that after a severe chop so early in the season, without a bit of green to help keep pulling water and sugars up the vasculature, it might not wake up.

Normally this kind of pruning back is done in the late winter early spring when the buds begin to swell.

There isn't much data on the response to cutting back branches on non satsuki azaleas. Normally if one is concerned about cutting back a branch on one of the hard pruning problematic azalea cultivars (ex: Issho no Haru, Kobai families etc) one would ensure there was a branch beneath the branch being pruned off to keep the azalea from dying back all the way to the branch's feeder roots.

After the chop, I'm thinking to wait a few weeks to repot: probably until a few sets of new leaves have hardened off. Does that seem like a good choice? That might be in mid April or so? In my St. Louis climate, it's probably dangerous to wait too long to repot - by the first week of June, average highs are 80-85F - and for the last 3 years it has hit at least 93F already. Last year, my first azalea died during the first week of June when we had 5 days in a row over 90F and I had it out in almost full sun. This year, the new azalea will be in better soil (85% kanuma / 10% pumice / 5% pine bark) and will be limited to morning sun.

I'd just do both pruning and repotting at once. Be sure the use a good sealer on all cuts. Ensure you properly protect the azalea after you are finished from low temperatures, say below 40ish.

IMHO There is absolutely no reason to use anything but 100% kanuma. If you go into the research you'll find many Japanese masters say that its impossible to overwater kanuma.... its the way it drains. The issue would be with your pots not draining well enough. I drill extra holes in most pots or just use plastic training pots with 12 or so 1/4+ holes in the bottom in addition to the normal drainage holes. Adding pumice would be going backwards for an azalea if you are using kanuma.

Also, I'd avoid adding bark. If you really need an organic component use NZ sphagnum moss. In the Puget Sound area I use 20-30% in my younger azaleas and they are all constantly exploding with growth. Once you add organics you will have to be a bit more careful about watering, but not overly so.

It's also important for me to remember that since it was just $30, it's ok to be a little on the bold side. I learned a lot from killing my first one!

I concur with that sentiment!

Good luck and keep us advised
DSD sends

 

[Kanorin]

Normally this kind of pruning back is done in the late winter early spring when the buds begin to swell.

There isn't much data on the response to cutting back branches on non satsuki azaleas. Normally if one is concerned about cutting back a branch on one of the hard pruning problematic azalea cultivars (ex: Issho no Haru, Kobai families etc) one would ensure there was a branch beneath the branch being pruned off to keep the azalea from dying back all the way to the branch's feeder roots.

I'd just do both pruning and repotting at once. Be sure the use a good sealer on all cuts. Ensure you properly protect the azalea after you are finished from low temperatures, say below 40ish.

Thanks for the reply! I guess there's not much advantage in waiting between the hard prune and the repot - maybe if this were a few hundred $ established specimen, it would be important to space out the insults.

Regarding the pumice, I got the idea from a Mirai live video where Peter Warren recommends using 5-10% pumice / 90-95% kanuma. He says that since kanuma breaks down so easily, the 5-10% pumice helps add a bit of structure and can help increase oxygen levels within the roots and water percollation particularly in the ~2nd-3rd year after a repot. I think the idea is that it helps out a little bit in that final year before another repot is needed. This was in reference to a much more established satsuki specimen, so it might not really apply to this nursery stock material, especially if the root mat isn't quite so dense.

As far as the pine bark - I'll drop that idea. I bought some and wanted an excuse to use it! Maybe I can find something else to do with it. I hate buying things and throwing them out. Maybe I'll smoke some ribs or something! I should go ahead and marinade those ribs in that 0-10-10 fertilizer that I bought last fall too!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks for the reply! I guess there's not much advantage in waiting between the hard prune and the repot - maybe if this were a few hundred $ established specimen, it would be important to space out the insults.

Regarding the pumice, I got the idea from a Mirai live video where Peter Warren recommends using 5-10% pumice / 90-95% kanuma. He says that since kanuma breaks down so easily, the 5-10% pumice helps add a bit of structure and can help increase oxygen levels within the roots and water percollation particularly in the ~2nd-3rd year after a repot. I think the idea is that it helps out a little bit in that final year before another repot is needed. This was in reference to a much more established satsuki specimen, so it might not really apply to this nursery stock material, especially if the root mat isn't quite so dense.

You should do what you want to do. Yet, that's really an interesting mix.... and rationale. I'll weigh in here one more time.

Why is that interesting... its because Kanuma retains its ability to have gaseous exchange. This occurs even when it looses its nugget form because the roots of the azalea penetrate the kanuma . Similar to what happens to akadama. (Which makes good sense as kanuma is dug in the same place, only a layer below akadama. Check this out.) In addition kanuma has a much higher CEC exchange than pumice does and a better pH. (see data table from @markyscottthread below.)

That said, I would never dis Peter Warren. However lets examine this mix.

If Kanuma really does get mushy, wouldn't it just fill up the interstitial spaces between the pumice, complete negating this "Porous"effect? In actuality Japanese azalea masters when repotting don't ever break up the core kanuma area filled with roots in their satsuki because the area is exchanging gases even though its a pretty darn solid hunk of kanuma. (Sometimes tunneling small areas and refilling these with fresh kanuma occurs for older trees though.) Ditto at the Museum I volunteer at.

I could see layering in a slightly larger layer of kanuma on the bottom of the pot to raise the water table a bit though. Best of both worlds.

If you haven't already, it might be a really good use of those Christmas funds to get a low cost book that really brought alot of my thoughts into perspective. Its called Bonsai Heresy by Michael Hagedorn. It was 25 bucks last time I checked. The growing media and repotting section is fascinating and the entire book is worth rereading imho.

As far as the pine bark - I'll drop that idea. I bought some and wanted an excuse to use it! Maybe I can find something else to do with it. I hate buying things and throwing them out. Maybe I'll smoke some ribs or something! I should go ahead and marinade those ribs in that 0-10-10 fertilizer that I bought last fall too!

I like your thinking!

As far as the bark goes, sifted it would be a great media base to mix with about 1/4 peat if you decide to grow out your azaleas in ground for a couple three years! I use it here with a bit of manure exclusively for all my in ground azaleas. Haven't lost one yet and they grow fast in this mix.

Oh! One hint that may help in the future. You might want to take cuttings of your new growth and stick them to grow out. You may find a need to work in a branch or two in the future to improve your styling.

cheers and I wish you the very best for the New Years!
DSD

 

[Harunobu]

I'd prune and repot early spring next year. Try to find a good balance between removing branches you don't need, cutting near areas where you want backbudding, and leaving foliage to keep the sap flow going.

I am a fan of pruning an area to get some backbudding first. And then going in back later and removing the larger branches near where you got the backbudding.
So in your case on the left where you drew the red line, prune off everything else beyond those backbuds. And try to get the same effect going on other parts.

I don't like the idea of going in and cutting flush stuff one doesn't need immediately. Or leaving very short stumps. If you leaf several long stumps, there are more options for backbudding. And this last good thing is exactly what you did, and you got the correct response. So I would try this approach on many of the remaining fat branches. You still need a bunch of stuff to go. But you can draw it out a bit over a couple of years. You already have a decent trunk. So you don't need any sacrificial branches to grow and fatten stuff up. Your goal is to bring foliage closer to the trunk. Then select out a final design. And then as the final step, grow foliage pods with proper shape and ramification.

I would not prune back the backbudding growth you are getting for at least a year. You can. But you can always do that later. With azaleas, think about waves of aggressive pruning and waves of uncontrolled growth.

As for repotting mixes. For most people, 100% kanuma is perfect. However, growing seedlings and small cuttings in a peat-based potting soil with perlite, I kind of think the initial results may be better.
Adding pumice to kanuma to retain more structure because the kanuma breaks down doesn't fully make sense to me. If the kanuma starts to compact, you should just repot. That said, I don't know if there is a downside to adding pumice. Maybe there are situations where one wants to avoid a repot. And thus keep the structure of the potting mix better for a longer period of time. And thus add the pumice.

Adding shredded pine works pretty well in peat. Not sure about adding it to kanuma. A lot of fungus can grow on the pine bark, though. But I don't know if that is good, bad, or neutral. If I lived in the Puget area, or Vancouver. Or Japan. Or India with some monsoon, adding pine bark is probably bad. Too much rain and too moist. I have much less rain than DSD (though the last week it felt like the Puget area here). I can definitely see that using 100% peat for azalea cuttings is pretty bad on the north pacific US coast. Same when you live on the Mexican gulf coast. And that kanuma there is the way to go. 200mm precipitation months are pretty intense. I don't think you get anywhere near as much rain. So while kanuma is nice, you can cut corners and use some other more organic stuff.

Also, I would say 30 dollar for an azalea nursery plant is on the pricy side, though. But that Joseph Hill is pretty nice, though. It looks way healthier and better than the one you killed.

Nice chart btw.

 

[Kanorin]

Thanks for the replies, both of you! I guess this speaks to the fact that there are more than one way to grow an azalea bonsai! Now, the scientist in me wants to buy 10 of these and test out a few variables. You guys have convinced me to use 100% kanuma, though.

I think for my level of technique and confidence, @Harunobu 's idea of cutting it back in 2-3 stages feels good to me. This azalea has already shown me that it responds well to that.

@Deep Sea Diver : Thanks for pushing me on 100% kanuma, the book recommendation, and trying out some cuttings. I took a few cuttings last year and these seem to root super easily. I made some mistakes in transplanting a few too early, but I have 2-3 that I left alone, are still alive, and hopefully they survive the winter.

 

[Kanorin]

I think it survived the winter heeled in and mulched in against the side of my house - including the 7 day stretch with lows hovering around -5 F.
I guess I won't know if it survived for sure for a few months yet.

Repotted this week. Although I probably should have put it into more of a training pot at this stage, I couldn't just leave this pot sitting around. I think it'll look nice with the brick-red blooms.

I removed around 60-70% of the roots, and about 30-40% of the foliage. If it survives, I'll plan to remove more excess branches after flowering - but I wanted to keep some solar panels in place to help repair the roots!
The future tree is in just a few buds and short greenery near the main trunk.

 

[Pitoon]

Spring is here and your azalea could be blooming (depending on your location) or starting to leaf out with this season’s flush……it’s time for updates!

I would also like to add at this time we have 3 prizes to award. Many thanks to @Forsoothe! and @Deep Sea Diver for donating. I am also donating a prize as well.

If you are no longer interested in continuing in the Azalea Contest, please let me know so we can close your thread, thanks.

 

[Kanorin]

Did another round of pruning. The plan is to do one more big prune after flowering. At that point I hope to have gotten rid of all of the branches that are not keeper branches.
There's a few branches that I left to see if I can get some interior buds on them in the next 2 months. If not, they are goners!
Still very much alive!

 

[Kanorin]

And a final round of major pruning and a little wire for the summer. I'm trying to decide if I need to just totally cut off that whorl that's in the center-right front. Might be able to hide it with some foliage and flowers eventually if not.

 

[Pitoon]

And a final round of major pruning and a little wire for the summer. I'm trying to decide if I need to just totally cut off that whorl that's in the center-right front. Might be able to hide it with some foliage and flowers eventually if not.
View attachment 380644

Looks good, it should fill in nicely. Top dressing looks a little dry.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I actually I seem to see two whorls one high one lower… must be prospective….

Anyways I would get it while the gettings good. It will only cause issues in the long run.

It’sa hard thing to do, I know, yet if you do it properly, your tree style will benefit from it.

It’s one of the downside of styling from existing stock vs whips, but it is very rewarding over time.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Kanorin]

I actually I seem to see two whorls one high one lower… must be prospective….

Anyways I would get it while the gettings good. It will only cause issues in the long run.

It’sa hard thing to do, I know, yet if you do it properly, your tree style will benefit from it.

It’s one of the downside of styling from existing stock vs whips, but it is very rewarding over time.

Cheers
DSD sends

Good eyes - I think there are 3 whorls left. One is quite hidden in the back. I think you're right that I should at the least get rid of the one that is front and center.

 

[Pitoon]

When working with nursery type stock, you can be sure you will find whorls as that's how azaleas push out their growth for the season. On a natural growing azalea that has not been pruned you can use the whorls/junctions to help guestimate the age.

Sometimes you can hide certain flaws with foliage sometimes you cannot. I think this tree would look good if you fill it out at this point. If you are willing to experiment by all means prune as you see fit. Just know it will put you back and you may not have a tree any better than what you started with.

Here is what I see.....others can see something completely different.