Kanorin's "Azalea 2020-2025" entry

[Kanorin]

Cleaned out a small section so I could get a peek at the trunk.

And here is a straggler bloom.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

White! Kinda looks like two trunks on the first photo. Are these attached?
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Sorry about the white! I’m trying out the slide to write on my phone and finding it a little persnickety
Best DSD sends

 

[Kanorin]

White! Kinda looks like two trunks on the first photo. Are these attached?
DSD sends

I think they are attached, but I'll get a closer look the next time I trim a few extra branches off.

I've never attempted to style a tree as a cascade/semi-cascade before so I'm seeking some advice. Should I be keeping one of those first low branches (about 2" above the soil line) as my main trunk, or would it look better to choose a branch that comes off the trunk a bit higher ( or perhaps one that comes out at 45 degrees and then arcs over the pot line) as the main trunk line?

For example: the orange vs the blue trunk lines in attached.

 

[Harunobu]

I'd go with blue. The angle on orange seems to extreme. There is some reverse taper on that node in the blue trunk, which is the downside of that one. But it isn't that extreme. I'd consider keeping the thickest branch emerging from that node, and I wouldn't prune it for a few years. And prune back all the others so those don't fatten. (not having seen how exactly that branch looks of course.) You can keep several on then and have them backbud so you don't need to pick one of them as a branch yet. That could undo the reverse taper.

While working on how the trunk looks, you can possibly keep options open on whether this is going to be a (semi)-cascade or informal upright. Not sure what is the best option for the twin trunks. Maybe just pretend it is one trunk and style the branches accordingly from both trunks, so they work together to do either the (semi)-cascade or informal upright. Other option is to make them distinct in the final design. And then it would probably be better to have one dominant over the other one. But that may look awkward given only 5 years of time to try to make one look dominant over the other, if they are too similar in stature.

 

[Forsoothe!]

You'd get better advice with better photos, like further away and all 4 sides. You appear to have a lot to work with and many nice cascades have counter-balancing branching rising on the side opposite the cascade at a complementary sweep. Cascades are not limited to any single pattern of branches. Here's somebody's Juniper with a full top and incidentally a full cascade...

Here's another that doesn't photograph as clearly with a very long cascade that has a long return. It descends over the front right corner, follows the pot around to the left rear corner, rises up and spills left, right and forward...

You have enough structure to do all this and more. Or, less, your choice.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

What @Forsoothe! said.

I recommend you get out the paper and pencil and play around with your short term and longer term design as you envision. It will change, but but its smart to have something to look at before you start cutting and hacking away.

To give your brain more cannon fodder to blast about.... Here's a semi cascade I was mucking about with in April >- May. Not the best I've worked on but it is mine. It has tiers per comments, one over, one up and over, one back. Sadly the back words tier needs resuscitation

Good Luck!
DSD sends

 

[Kanorin]

Thanks for the replies! It actually looks like the two trunks are separate at least at the soil line.

I'm thinking to take this out of the nursery can, separate the trunks, and repot with just enough root work to separate the trunks in early August. Is that a high risk, since most days are still 90 degrees here.

Then I'll sketch out the structure as suggested.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

You must be one of the really brave ones!

I might do it in the Seattle area, if I was feeling like my R genes were kicking in - just because I could baby it in 77-60F weather in the cool 80 % dappled shady part of the back yard...... but St Louis... not so sure about that.

But what the hey, life’s too short!

Maybe @Leo in N E Illinois or one of the 90F 90% humidity folks might have a better thought on this one...

Good luck!
DSD sends

 

[Kanorin]

You must be one of the really brave ones!

Haha, I killed my first entry, so maybe brave isn't the only way to describe this course of action.

Let's explore some other options.
1. Leave it in the nursery can until spring
2. Try to find a larger pot and slip-pot it without any root work now, then split trunks and root work in spring
3. Split trunks and minor rootwork in early September (for perspective, date of first frost is around October 17)

 

[Forsoothe!]

I never do root work in autumn. They go to sleep and never wake up in spring.

 

[Harunobu]

If you really want to get rid of the twin trunks, I would sacrifice one to keep the other. Prune away the one you don't like and just let the roots of that one die.

The root systems will be 100% intertwined. If you want to separate, both will lose 50% of their roots. You will have to raw the root ball straight through the middle. And half of the roots in each part will belong to the trunk that is in the other half. If this wasn't a 5 year competition, I may consider doing that if I had these plants, and do it next spring. And then grow out those trunks in full ground for a couple of years. And then look at them and if I want to pot them up.

On a 5 year clock, you are probably better off keeping them together.

 

[Forsoothe!]

If you really want to get rid of the twin trunks, I would sacrifice one to keep the other. Prune away the one you don't like and just let the roots of that one die.

The root systems will be 100% intertwined. If you want to separate, both will lose 50% of their roots. You will have to raw the root ball straight through the middle. And half of the roots in each part will belong to the trunk that is in the other half. If this wasn't a 5 year competition, I may consider doing that if I had these plants, and do it next spring. And then grow out those trunks in full ground for a couple of years. And then look at them and if I want to pot them up.

On a 5 year clock, you are probably better off keeping them together.

Yes, the least bad of options. I remain mystified that people acquire trees and then want to change them drastically rather than shopping for what they want.... "Give me the black one, and a bucket of white paint..."

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thanks for the replies! It actually looks like the two trunks are separate at least at the soil line.

I'm thinking to take this out of the nursery can, separate the trunks, and repot with just enough root work to separate the trunks in early August. Is that a high risk, since most days are still 90 degrees here.

Then I'll sketch out the structure as suggested.

I strongly recommend sacrifice the unwanted extra trunk, cut it off flush to the ground, then in spring do your repot. Even in ideal conditions, when you have separate trunks this root bound together, attempting to separate them often results in deaths of both.

I've killed many florists azalea that were 2 to 5 trunks per pot. Separating them often was fatal to all trunks. Just cut off unwanted trunk, and over time, 2 or 3 subsequent repotts, you can tease out the dead roots.
This summer is rough. Delay repotting until spring.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

After you get rid of one trunk, a fresh set of photos, as suggested above, and then maybe I and others can give you better design ideas.

 

[Kanorin]

Yes, the least bad of options. I remain mystified that people acquire trees and then want to change them drastically rather than shopping for what they want.... "Give me the black one, and a bucket of white paint..."

I think for me (and a lot of newer hobbyists), I don't have the experience to correctly estimate how much work and time it will take to bring a tree to its potential AND what that max potential is. Given enough time, most trees (of species that respond well to bonsai techniques) can probably be made into something nice - not show winning, but pleasing to look at. But I lack the experience to know the difference between a tree I see at the nursery that has a pretty straightforward path to looking good in 5-10 years vs. the one that I see that looks better right now (maybe it has a thicker trunk or something), but actually it needs more time and work because the roots are a mess and there is a big taperless section that needs to be chopped and regrown.

And it's also hard for me to guess if that taperless section that needs to be chopped and regrown is a 3 year or 15 year project or a death sentence because I've never done it. And that's part of why you all helping me out is so valuable: Especially @Forsoothe! @Leo in N E Illinois @Deep Sea Diver @Harunobu . So thanks again, all!

I'm learning a lot just from proposing ideas and listening to how poor they are.

 

[rawlyn]

I strongly recommend sacrifice the unwanted extra trunk, cut it off flush to the ground, then in spring do your repot. Even in ideal conditions, when you have separate trunks this root bound together, attempting to separate them often results in deaths of both.

I've killed many florists azalea that were 2 to 5 trunks per pot. Separating them often was fatal to all trunks. Just cut off unwanted trunk, and over time, 2 or 3 subsequent repotts, you can tease out the dead roots.
This summer is rough. Delay repotting until spring.

Yikes!
Wish I'd seen this advice from @Forsoothe! @Leo in N E Illinois and @Harunobu before I impatiently tore into mine last weekend.

I did precisely what they're counseling against here. My trees weren't as closely planted as those of @Kanorin appear to be, and my climate is nowhere near as oppressive as St. Louis in summer, but I guess I'll need to keep my fingers crossed that my trees can recover from my rash separation surgery.

If they don't make it, I'll be wiser for contest tree 2.0 at any rate. Many thanks for all the help you're giving to the rest of us, guys!

- Mike

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

But I lack the experience to know the difference between a tree I see at the nursery that has a pretty straightforward path to looking good in 5-10 years vs. the one that I see that looks better right now (maybe it has a thicker trunk or something), but actually it needs more time and work because the roots are a mess and there is a big taperless section that needs to be chopped and regrown.

3 year or 15 year project or a death sentence because I've never done it.

I'm learning a lot just from proposing ideas and listening to how poor they are.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks @Kanorin .

Don’t feel like you are the only cowpoke on this cattle drive!
Being able to style is actually the culmination of learning many of the other tasks and techniques involved in Bonsai. I.e.

- knowing and conceptualizing all possible 3D designs and selecting the optional one,
- evaluation of raw material
- wiring
- bending ,
- pruning,
- potting positioning options and techniques
- proper timing and horticulture
- future-casting,
- actually following a plan on an animate object etc....
- aftercare
(...and far for me to claim mastery on styling!)

That’s why styling at a glance is hard for most people and easier for the experienced and those with really good mentors.

So it’s a blend of knowledges, skills and learned or inherited artistic techniques that you are gathering. Like tools in a tool box!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Kanorin
Even from your less than idea photos, I actually think this second azalea has potential. The thicker of the 2 trunks is the one that I would keep.

There are several upright and at least 2 or 3 cascade designs in there. Don't worry about reverse taper and some of the other flaws, these things can be fixed, often fairly quickly, like inside contest deadlines.