Kanuma for Spruce?

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Shohin
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Hi Guys,

According to Harry Harringtons book "Bonsai Inspirations 2" It states that Spruce are best suited to soils in the 5.0-6.0ph range. As Kanuma has a ph of around 5.5 should I use this as the main part of substrate??
 

TomB

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I've never seen anyone growing a spruce in Kanuma. Most that I've seen at shows are in akadama-based mixes (e.g. akadama, lava, pumice). I only have one but it seems happy in that kind of mix. They seem to prefer cooler/damper roots, so bear that in mind when planning your substrate (e.g. more akadama, similar to a maple; or smaller particle size; or deeper pot; or site in a partially shaded location that still gets good airflow).
 

PA_Penjing

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I've often wondered why kanuma isn't used for acid loving conifers. Because the Japanese have dialed this art in so hard I feel like there must be a reason they don't
 

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Shohin
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Do you think it's worth a try?
 

PA_Penjing

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If you have kanuma, or are dying to spend money on kanuma then sure. I’m a cheapo so I’ll find reasons not to spend money on bonsai dirt. I’ll ask Jim Doyle what he thinks about it when I see him tomorrow
 

Adair M

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If you have kanuma, or are dying to spend money on kanuma then sure. I’m a cheapo so I’ll find reasons not to spend money on bonsai dirt. I’ll ask Jim Doyle what he thinks about it when I see him tomorrow
How many spruce does Jim Doyle have?
 

Graft

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If you have kanuma, or are dying to spend money on kanuma then sure. I’m a cheapo so I’ll find reasons not to spend money on bonsai dirt. I’ll ask Jim Doyle what he thinks about it when I see him tomorrow
I have plenty of kanuma and only one azalea to use it on! Actually Kanuma here is not that much more than akadama. Please let me know what Jim Doyle says. that would be appreciated. Maybe one of the reasons it doesn't get used might be the colour. Quite a stark white, probably looks too much like quartz!
 

PA_Penjing

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How many spruce does Jim Doyle have?
In his personal collection there’s either 4 or 5. But spruce make up a huge portion of what he sells. Was assuming he was well versed in picea, perhaps not?

actually an interesting side note, picea jezoensis “JD’s dwarf” is named after him and came from his bonsai collection
 
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Leo in N E Illinois

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I have used Kanuma for Picea. But Picea are not that fussy. Akadama has a pH that is only slightly higher. Spruce do fine in Akadama. The issue I see is Akadama looks "natural" as a soil media. Kanuma, is bright yellow. If you pot a spruce in Kanuma, you will have to cover the kanuma with moss before a show as the kanuma is just plain "ugly" for display purposes. With azalea, we always cover the kanuma with a layer of moss, so Kanuma is not an issue color wise.

Kanuma is less widely available in North America than akadama. Even akadama is hard to get. Most will use akadama as it is slightly easier to get and slightly cheaper too.

Spruce are not that fussy about soil. They will grow fine in akadama, they will grow fine in Kanuma, they will grow well in pumice they grow well in bark mixes. They grow well in a wide range of potting media. There is no need to worry about the slight advantage that kanuma may offer in terms of pH. It is not a "significant factor" or a "limiting factor" in growing spruce.
 

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Thanks for the replies guys,

I guess I'll have to get some azaleas to use my kanuma up! What a shame. ;)
 

Adair M

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In his personal collection there’s either 4 or 5. But spruce make up a huge portion of what he sells. Was assuming he was well versed in picea, perhaps not?

actually an interesting side note, picea jezoensis “JD’s dwarf” is named after him and came from his bonsai collection

Good! I didn’t know that he is a known “spruce expert”.

I have my Ezo Spruce in straight pumice.
 

Adair M

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I have used Kanuma for Picea. But Picea are not that fussy. Akadama has a pH that is only slightly higher. Spruce do fine in Akadama. The issue I see is Akadama looks "natural" as a soil media. Kanuma, is bright yellow. If you pot a spruce in Kanuma, you will have to cover the kanuma with moss before a show as the kanuma is just plain "ugly" for display purposes. With azalea, we always cover the kanuma with a layer of moss, so Kanuma is not an issue color wise.

Kanuma is less widely available in North America than akadama. Even akadama is hard to get. Most will use akadama as it is slightly easier to get and slightly cheaper too.

Spruce are not that fussy about soil. They will grow fine in akadama, they will grow fine in Kanuma, they will grow well in pumice they grow well in bark mixes. They grow well in a wide range of potting media. There is no need to worry about the slight advantage that kanuma may offer in terms of pH. It is not a "significant factor" or a "limiting factor" in growing spruce.
Leo, ALL bonsai should have their soil covered with moss when showing! It doesn’t matter what color the soil is! It shouldn’t be seen! Lol!!!
 

PA_Penjing

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Well, I never said he was a known spruce expert. But it appears to me that he is doing a good job, especially considering our/his climate. Beleive his nursery is technically zone 7a.
 

clem

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I've often wondered why kanuma isn't used for acid loving conifers. Because the Japanese have dialed this art in so hard I feel like there must be a reason they don't
In Japan, they use kiryu ( a kind of sand granulate) + akadama with a lot of trees (conifer, deciduous). I remember that this soil (kiryu) is much appreciated by conifers. it brings acidity if i remember good. I would prefer to use kiryu than kanuma for conifers, and like you said, if kanuma isn't used for conifers in Japan, there must be a good reason
 

Djtommy

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I don’t think kanuma in itself is bad for spruce, I actually have used it once and the tree didn’t seem to mind but it’s not a soil which you can use for long time. it will break down to Small pieces and will not benefit root growth like that, spruces if potted in a decent medium can be left like that for many years without repotting, not something I see possible with Kanuma, especially since spruces are cold area trees and usually grown where temps go minus a lot. Kanuma won’t hold up well.
i use a mixture of ezo sand and akadama, it works well.
 

Colorado

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I've often wondered why kanuma isn't used for acid loving conifers. Because the Japanese have dialed this art in so hard I feel like there must be a reason they don't

Kanuma is very, very soft. Much softer than good akadama. It breaks down too quickly.

I’ve got a bag of kanuma in the garage and have experimented with it in a few soil mixes. Not going to buy another bag when this one is done.
 

clem

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I don’t think kanuma in itself is bad for spruce, I actually have used it once and the tree didn’t seem to mind but it’s not a soil which you can use for long time. it will break down to Small pieces and will not benefit root growth like that, spruces if potted in a decent medium can be left like that for many years without repotting, not something I see possible with Kanuma, especially since spruces are cold area trees and usually grown where temps go minus a lot. Kanuma won’t hold up well.
i use a mixture of ezo sand and akadama, it works well.
Is there a difference between ezo sand & kiryu ?
 

Djtommy

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Is there a difference between ezo sand & kiryu ?
Color? Apart from that, I think the characteristics are largely the same And both can be used similarly. i have used the ezo sand in a mixture for white pine too. I just happened to have that one and not the Kiryu.
 

PA_Penjing

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Well, I hope no one was holding their breath. Jim's reply was simply that most conifers don't like the soil that acidic. I wasn't going to argue with him, because he knows his stuff. But I swore some spruce, larch, and pine liked it pretty acidic. Perhaps I'm just misinformed. Colorado's explanation seems the best so far
 
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