Kimura Cookie Cutter?

Messages
1,706
Reaction score
133
Location
Bremerton, WA
USDA Zone
8b
lol... I have worked on more JBP than I have bothered to count... they are pretty groovy... but a really good D tree takes more effort in my opinion... and is far rarer a bird than a good JBP... they have a habit of all looking the same by and large. :p Unless they are twisty and have lots of great deadwood.

V
 

yenling83

Omono
Messages
1,047
Reaction score
1,426
Location
Nipomo, CA
To answer the question from my perspective.... no.

You can't have cookie cutter when the artist manages to do things which are so distinctive that there is no doubt in your mind who did the work without even knowing.

V

hmmm....Good point. What about the crown's on his trees? What about several other of the Japanese Masters? you might not be able to distingish which Master worked on which tree-especially if you have never seen the tree before. Do you consider other Japanese Masters work to be cookie cutter?

I am really curious to hear what you think.
 

Mojosan

Mame
Messages
240
Reaction score
3
Location
Northern Idaho
USDA Zone
6
... they have a habit of all looking the same by and large.

You mean 'cookie cutter' like? :p
 

Attila Soos

Omono
Messages
1,804
Reaction score
54
Location
Los Angeles (Altadena), CA
USDA Zone
9
....he has over 1500 top notch trees, but I am willing to bet he doesn't have a tree worth 100,000 bucks.

As Victrinia said, money is subjective. You may not find somebody in the West to pay $100M for a top American tree, but you know that if the same tree was sold in Japan, the mentioned amout may not be such a high price. It all depends on the collector's situation and perspective. If you presented a Pre-Columbian (over 500 year old) magnificent Rocky Mountain Juniper on a Japanese auction, the sky would be the limit. There is nothing more important for collectors, to have cool and unique pieces, that nobody else has. For that, they will pay ANYTHING.

Would you pay $12 million for a two ton, decaying stuffed shark? Well, it happened in an art auction, just because the piece looked "cool".
 
Last edited:

buddhamonk

Chumono
Messages
748
Reaction score
13
Location
Ptown oregon
If kimura is cookie cutter because of the reasons that people mentioned, then everyone is cookie cutter. Even people who have "natural style" bonsai. It's all cookie cutter unless you're the only one in the world doing it in a unique way.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,913
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
It is rather amazing that Kimura and cookie cutter should be used in the same sentence. If you have followed Kimura's career in Bonsai Today and International Bonsai it soon become apparent that Kimura is in Japan thought to be some sort of iconoclast, challenging convention and stretching rules. If anything Kimura has done what most extreme artists do; they define the rules and make new ones through their successful artistry. In my way of thinking Kimura is to bonsai what Mozart was to music. Taking a tradition and way of thinking having become boring and redundant, and stretched it out, refined it, added to it and made it the quintessential expression of it. So is Kimura cookie cutter? No! He is however; the pinnacle of the Japanese expression of bonsai.

To put things in perspective and as brief as possible cookie cutter is nothing more than the bonsai version of paint by the numbers where by an endless number of artist-wannabes can achieve a more or less artistic result by following a number of rules to achieve that goal. If one takes the time to examine the material that Kimura starts with it is in most cases almost impossible, without hours of study, to even imagine the cookie cutter in this stuff; let alone obtain the results he does.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,998
Reaction score
46,198
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
If you consider his more popular trees, some of his work looks somewhat "predictable" or identifiable. Amazing deadwood with very meticulously styled canopy. But...
1. His horticultural skills and styling techniques are impressive; indisputable from what I've seen.
2. Consider some of his other work beyond the amazing deadwood and meticulously styled canopy. These landscapes are quite original.

kim010.jpg

kim011.jpg

kim012.jpg

3. His work on classical pieces show he definitely has respect for the craft. This juniper has quite a history going back to the '30s, and he really did justice to the original style when he restyled this tree. It's somewhere in a Bonsai Today, this is the "before" photo. The "after" is tasty.

kim006.jpg
 
Last edited:

greerhw

Omono
Messages
1,976
Reaction score
15
It all boils down to personal taste, I don't give a crap about a Picasso if it wasn't for the money, I wouldn't give you 25 bucks for one. Rembrandt on the other hand, gives me a woody, he had his s#*t together, so did Monet, so in the end we all have our favorites, but in the eyes of the beholder, art is a personal feeling, just like bonsai trees.

keep it green,
Harry
 
Last edited:

yenling83

Omono
Messages
1,047
Reaction score
1,426
Location
Nipomo, CA
It all boils down to personal taste, I don't give a crap about a Picasso if it wasn't for the money, I wouldn't give you 25 bucks for one. Rembrandt on the other hand, gives me a woody, he had his s#*t together, so did Monet, so in the end we all have our favorites, but in the eyes of the beholder, art is a personal feeling, just like bonsai trees.

keep it green,
Harry

ha ha-a woody! Nice, I guess Kimura does the same for me.
 
Messages
1,706
Reaction score
133
Location
Bremerton, WA
USDA Zone
8b
hmmm....Good point. What about the crown's on his trees? What about several other of the Japanese Masters? you might not be able to distingish which Master worked on which tree-especially if you have never seen the tree before. Do you consider other Japanese Masters work to be cookie cutter?

I am really curious to hear what you think.

I don't put "Master" (emphasis on the capital M) and cookie cutter into the same sentance. I'm not sure what would be considered cookie cutter in his crowns... are they layered... are there elements of a triangle? Well sure... but so are the crowns on 99.9% of all trees. Inverted or not... you can find a triangle on a tree. God loves math after all, so I'm not surprised by the geometry of trees.

The only time you lack a triangle is on the .1% of the trees in the world which are ancient. Most people are not very good at pulling off "ancient" in trees because they can't resist the triangle. ;)

For me, the distinction between cookie cutter and that which is not, is vision. Vision is what creates a distinctive style between true artists, as elements that can be identified to an individual. Do you know a DaVinci when you see it? Of course you do... no one else drew a line the way he did... everything else that imitates it is a fraud, and a poor one at that. Because a person can forge something, but only he could create it. Believe me, I've made studies of replicating his work, so I know of what I speak. lol

It has been said, that in Japanese tradition you can't be a master until you can replicate the master's work. Because then you have learned your craft... from there they can depart from the master's work and develop their own style. So there is no shame in replicating the work of a master... it teaches you the skills needed to have the foundation needed for your own vision.

Can I style a tree to be a mimic of my teacher's work? Of course... I've spent years learning his style, thought process, and methods... does my work look like my teacher's... no. Because the vision that eminates from his work, and that which is in mine, are different. He would tell you I am too fond of beautiful layered crowns... because he believes they should reflect the natural harshness of the places where they come from... I believe in refining that twisted story into something harmonious and beautiful. So while his influence is obvious, my work is my own.

Is Kimura cookie cutter.... no... he made his own mold, and was rejected by the establishment for years because of it. When the world noticed, they had to stop and realize he had changed the course of bonsai by the fact that beauty trumps tradition outside of Japan. Bonsai is big business as well as national pride, they couldn't afford to ignore him any more.
 

greerhw

Omono
Messages
1,976
Reaction score
15
Back yard sale, for 100,000 bucks, you can pick out any two of my cookie cutter trees and I will deliver them to you, PayPal excepted. Hell you can have all of them, same deal.

keep it green,
Harry
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom