Kishu vs Itoigawa - which is better?

Ply

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Perhaps the title should be which do you like better, since it's arguable a little subjective. But I'm wondering which, in your opinion, would be the better cultivar to get?
 

Arnold

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I love the bluish Kishu foliage but a good quality Itoigawa is unbeatable, the king of all junipers
 
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RJG2

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I don't have experience with either yet, but I jokingly asked Colin Lewis this question, and he said Kishu. I didn't get into why.

Edit: here's a good post from @Brian Van Fleet about them:

 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Itoigawa is a strong grower.
Kishu is slower but denser.

I like itoigawa because they're easier to get. I have two cuttings for 3 years now and they went from pencil to thumb thickness in that time.
They're less plagued by scale and mites than blaauw is.
 
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Ply

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I don't have experience with either yet, but I jokingly asked Colin Lewis this question, and he said Kishu. I didn't get into why.

Edit: here's a good post from @Brian Van Fleet about them:

Interesting Colin Lewis prefered Kishu. Would've been interesting to hear his reasoning.

Yes I had read the @Brian Van Fleet resource, it's a good overview. He has a follow up with a little more info on the two cultivars.

Just wondering if others, or Brian himself, have something to add. Not just in the texture and color of the foliage but also vigour, growth, health, trunk thickening etc etc. And the 'balling up' BVF mentions, does this make it harder to style the tree? Brian also mentions Itoigawa seems a little more in favor right now in Japan, wondering why.
 
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I have both and i like itoigawa.

In my area we have lots of spidermites.

And kishu always has it.

Itoigawa is more resistance to it.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Interesting Colin Lewis prefered Kishu. Would've been interesting to hear his reasoning.

Yes I had read the @Brian Van Fleet resource, it's a good overview. He has a follow up with a little more info on the two cultivars.

Just wondering if others, or Brian himself, have something to add. Not just in the texture and color of the foliage but also vigour, growth, health, trunk thickening etc etc. And the 'balling up' BVF mentions, does this make it harder to style the tree? Brian also mentions Itoigawa seems a little more in favor right now in Japan, wondering why.
I prefer the foliage color and texture of the Itoigawa. The foliage “Balling up” on a kishu doesn’t make it harder to style, just requires a slightly different approach to trimming foliage back. Of my entire collection, if I could only keep one tree, it would be my itoigawa from Evergreen Gardenworks. It is not a standout on the bench, but for some reason it has remained my favorite. It has provided lots of cuttings, and a few are finally getting fat in the ground. Kishu is much slower to trunk up, and more susceptible to spider mites. The real drawbacks of itoigawa are the reversion to juvenile foliage and the slight reluctance to back-bud.
31ECDE6A-E262-481C-9DD6-EEF4D9A182FE.jpeg
I bought a rare ‘Kiyozuru’ a few years ago from Chikugo-en, and the foliage color is great, but the texture is different from itoigawa. One day I’ll post more about that cultivar. I’m growing it out a little for some cuttings.
45D80C28-D83E-44D0-B1F1-F318D8681673.jpeg
 
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Bonsai Nut

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I personally prefer kishu because of the tight dark green foliage.

That said, itoigawa is slightly finer, and though I don't like the color quite as much, it is easier to style a highly refined foliage mass. It also grows slightly faster than kishu (or at least throws more elongating growth).

However the one cultivar I currently have the most new cuttings from is blaauw :)
 
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I prefer the foliage color and texture of the Itoigawa. The foliage “Balling up” on a kishu doesn’t make it harder to style, just requires a slightly different approach to trimming foliage back. Of my entire collection, if I could only keep one tree, it would be my itoigawa from Evergreen Gardenworks. It is not a standout on the bench, but for some reason it has remained my favorite. It has provided lots of cuttings, and a few are finally getting fat in the ground. Kishu is much slower to trunk up, and more susceptible to spider mites. The real drawbacks of itoigawa are the reversion to juvenile foliage and the slight reluctance to back-bud.
View attachment 455038
I bought a rare ‘Kiyozuru’ a few years ago from Chikugo-en, and the foliage color is great, but the texture is different from itoigawa. One day I’ll post more about that cultivar. I’m growing it out a little for some cuttings.
View attachment 455039
@Brian,

Any chance you know/can find how that 'Kiyozuru' is written in Japanese? I've searched every combination of Kanji I can think of and can't find it. The texture looks similar to the Juniper that a lot of people use for hedges out here, but much smaller. My best guess is 清鶴, but that didn't yield any bonsai-related results.

I'm trying to build my collection of 'weird' shinpaku. Been looking for some of the gold variety itoigawa, as well variegated itoigawa as well. Would love to get my hands on some of this as well.
 

Arnold

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What makes you prefer Itoigawa?
Ive seen both in person and Itoigawa always had an overall better quality and look to it, I entirely dont know how explain it but is the perception I had
 

Brian Van Fleet

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@Brian,

Any chance you know/can find how that 'Kiyozuru' is written in Japanese? I've searched every combination of Kanji I can think of and can't find it. The texture looks similar to the Juniper that a lot of people use for hedges out here, but much smaller. My best guess is 清鶴, but that didn't yield any bonsai-related results.

I'm trying to build my collection of 'weird' shinpaku. Been looking for some of the gold variety itoigawa, as well variegated itoigawa as well. Would love to get my hands on some of this as well.
Sorry, no idea. The only history I can find on the Kiyozuru cultivar begins and ends at Chikugo-en, so if you find anything, let me know. Even Gary Ishii didn’t know where his father acquired it, but his mother was able to identify the cultivar immediately. Gary said he didn’t have many left, and had a hard time telling them apart from itoigawa unless he looks closely.
 
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