Kushida Matsuo's growing techniques

[Alain BERTRAND]

They do advise to cold stratificate 1-3 months after having soaked the seeds. I can translate the rest of the label but there's not much interesting.

That is too bad for me because I had maybe 200-300 seeds of JRP obtained from my own trees (JRP fructifies quite early in their lives) that I intended to sow this spring. I 'll have to wait a little

 

[Specialkayme]

Good to know. I wonder how you were able to sprout all of yours without cold stratifying at all? Perhaps just luck.

The packet came with 30 seeds. I also have the white pine, and black pine on the way. Both have 60 seeds each (buy one, get one free), and both will only remain viable for another year, max. When I mentioned that I'd have a few hundred trees growing, my wife got pissed. She said they neighbors would think we are "tree hoarders" whatever that is. To appease the wife, I'll have to scale back on the number of seedlings a bit. That means I have a few seeds to "spare."

As a result, I think I'll end up sowing 15 directly, and stratifying 15 for a month or two. If the 15 that I directly sowed don't make it, oh well

 

[mcpesq817]

So I repotted one into a 2 gal smart pot, and the other into a 3 gal Rootbuilder pot. Both were potted into a mixture that I made after researching on the internet (15% sifted peat moss, 45% permatill, 10% sand, 15% pumice, 15% turface). I don't think I'm going to have a problem with root rot with that mixture. I'll just have to up the watering to make sure they don't dry out, especially with the air pots.

I think Alain is right. Those pots are way too big for your seedlings. Just because the mix may be well draining doesn't mean you can't over pot a tree. I lost a nice sized Scots Pine that was in 100% inorganic mix and in an Anderson flat because it was overpotted - and you can't get more well draining than 100% inorganic in an Anderson flat.

 

[Specialkayme]

Ok, so the 2 gal and the 3 gal are both too big?

The 2 gal is the smallest smart pot I could find in the area, and the 3 gal is the smallest rootbuilder I could find. I told the guy that I wanted smaller, but he said they didn't carry it (yet), maybe by the end of the season they would

So if both are too big, here are my options:
1) Go back to a 6" or so pot. They arn't air pruning (which is the point of the Kushida Matsuo method), and I would have to repot in a year or so.
2) Order 1 gal rootbuilders (for extra $$$) or even quart sized rootbuilders.
3) Cut the 3 gal rootbuilder in half (or even in thirds) height wise. This would make a 1 or 1.5 gallon air pruning pot, but would be wider than is normally found in a pot. I could also cut the 2 gal smart pot in half.
3) Go to walmart and get some cheap colanders.

I was kinda excited about trying out the air pruning pots (if you couldn't tell already), but I may have been premature in moving them in. I just repotted yesterday, so if I'm going to move them into a more stable home, I think I only have one more shot at this before the toying around kills them.

 

[Specialkayme]

Any thoughts on which one of those options would be best?

 

[mcpesq817]

I can't see your pics here, but from what I remember, these were tiny seedlings. Are you talking about the 8" seedlings? The 6" pots might work, but I think even 1 gallon pots would be too large. Part of it would depend on how much foliage was on the plant, as well as how much root mass you have.

I've had good luck up-potting deciduous seedlings, but conifers are pretty touchy.

 

[sfhellwig]

I think that you are right about no more toying around. I would say leave them alone but those are way too big of pots, no matter the drainage. Don't cut up your nice pots you've purchased. You will want them later when some of these are larger (bonsai is also a game of collecting equipment). If purchasing the appropriate size on-line isn't really an option then go with the colander. Many people have used them and they are similar to a cheap air pot. Just be aware that they are not meant for cold and UV exposure so don't expect them to last too many years (more than one) but hey, they're cheap. Move them to colanders and leave them alone.

As for the seeds, 30 and 60 aren't really experimenting numbers but it is what you will have so pick two methods and split them. Someone said they got away with a month in the fridge so try some stratified for 1 month and some for 2 months. Keep track and you will have statistics to help you decide in the future. I don't think direct sowing would be a good choice and splitting your seeds three ways will just dilute the data. If you are messing with multiple seed projects you will have to think about winter protection any way so even if the later germinating are more successful, you've got to take care of them some how. As for too many, do all of them and keep only the best. It's called culling and it's not fun to learn. But you have to give yourself a number and stick with it. The others have to go or give them away. I did multiple types of maples last year and after hand pricking nearly 60 trees I had to dump the flats. I had no more time and space or I could have kept going until I had 100 of each. Good luck.

 

[Specialkayme]

Ok, sounds good. I'll look for some pond baskets and colanders today, and hopefully get them repotted into some smaller pots soon.

If I can't find the right size colander or pond basket (or for the right price) I'll go back to the 6" pots. Either way, I've got to make a move.

Thanks for the help, I'll keep you all updated.

 

[mcpesq817]

Ok, sounds good. I'll look for some pond baskets and colanders today, and hopefully get them repotted into some smaller pots soon.

If I can't find the right size colander or pond basket (or for the right price) I'll go back to the 6" pots. Either way, I've got to make a move.

Thanks for the help, I'll keep you all updated.

I bought a bunch of pond baskets from this place a couple of years ago. The prices and options seemed to be the best at the time, and the baskets are still holding up pretty well:

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/cat/infoL3/23870/category.web

 

[Specialkayme]

I took a trip to the local pet shop, as well as the local nursery, and they didn't carry pond baskets. The local Target only had the expensive type of colanders (and while I'm sure they will last a long time, they are too pricey to use as a $1 pot).

The local hydro shop had these:

Do you think they would work well?

They are net pots used in hydro systems. I don't know how well they would do in the sun, but the hydro worker felt sorry that they didn't have smaller rootbuilders and gave them to me for 59¢ each. I picked up four, and said I might be back. Even if they only last six months, still worth it in my opinion.

But do you think they are big enough? Worth it?

I know I'm bugging you with all these questions, just trying to make sure I do it right the first time (well, ok, I've already had to re-do it, just making sure I don't have to re-do it 5 more times after this )

 

[Specialkayme]

Sorry, I realized you can't really see how big those pots were.

Let me know if photobucket isn't working on this site, and I'll attach them directly. It's just quicker for me this way.

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

This one seems ok to me for first and second year. You'll have probably to splippot for the third one. BTW, for a non professionnal like us, I think it may be acceptable to loose a little time to better work on the nebari.

 

[Specialkayme]

You'll have probably to splippot for the third one.

Sorry for being a noob but what's slippot?

BTW, for a non professionnal like us, I think it may be acceptable to loose a little time to better work on the nebari.

Again, I'm sorry, but can you explain what you mean by that?

 

[bretts]

Slip pot means to remove the root ball from the pot and slip this into a larger pot disturbing the roots as little as possible.
To clarify about stratifying JBP seeds. They will germinate just as well without this but professional nurseries often stratify as it makes the germination period more predictable which suits production procedure.

 

[Specialkayme]

Thanks bretts. Is that true for red pine as well as JBP? I read the instructions for JWP, and due to the hot stratification, followed by three months of cold stratification, I'm assuming I shouldn't be messing around with these and should stick straight to the instructions.

 

[mcpesq817]

Those look pretty good, but the drainage holes might be a bit big. Are you planning to wrap screening material around the inside?

The pond baskets I linked to have very small holes, which can hold 100% turface mixtures without any loss. I've been using the square ones and they hold up pretty well. The other advantage of the square ones is that they are more squat than the round ones, which probably helps nebari development a little more.

 

[Specialkayme]

I wasn't planning on using screening. I tested with the soil mixture I have, and very little falls out (actually, probably only a little bit of turface, and some peat moss dust, but that's about it). After a few waterings, I doubt much more will come out.

But if you suggest wrapping the inside in screening, do you suggest just the bottom, or the sides as well?

I already have two size screen: #8 (1/8" holes) and the kind for screen doors (MUCH finer, although not as fine as the mosquito netting stuff). Which would you suggest is better?

 

[mcpesq817]

If it holds the mixture, then you should be ok I would think. For my pond baskets, I don't use any screening.

When I do use screens, I just buy the plastic screens that I think are used for needlepoint at arts and crafts stores like Michael's and AC Moore. Not sure of the exact dimensions of the holes, but they are pretty small and hold soil components like turface pretty well.

 

[Specialkayme]

I know what nets you are talking about. I'll keep my eyes open for them, and see if the pots are giving me problems. Hopefully they will work out just fine.

 

[Thomas J.]

Here's a few of mine that I have in training. the first one is approx 3 yrs old and for the first 2 yrs it was in a small seedling pot about 2inches or so. As soon as the trunk hardened up I began to wire it tight to both give it shape and help induce swelling in the trunk to enlargen it. This year I moved it into a collander where it will just grow up and out for a few yrs.

The third pic is of a 4 yr old tree which is coming along nicely also.

here in Texas the summer heat last very long and is very hot so these collanders will be put in a shallow dish with water where they will love it.