Larch design advice?

[LemonBonsai]

So I picked up a japanese larch (Larix Kaempferi Haverbeck) and had a plan to do structural pruning over winter. Here is a picture of the full tree right now.

There is one main problem for this tree and that it has reverse taper because 1) its been grafted onto european larch root stock and 2) because theres a lower branch that was allowed to grow out causing a bulge where the graft was created.

You can see thr graft is in this shape.


My plan was to cut it here, this would fix my reverse taper problem, and help me gain proper taper.


My questions are 1.) Is this a good idea to fix my problem? (Safe for the tree, and also safe to cut into the graft like this)
And 2.) If it is a good idea should this be performed over 2 winters? This cut would remove 90% of the tree, so would it be better to remove 50% of that this winter, let the bottom branch get stronger over next summer, and then finish off the chop? (The bottom branch is about 9 to 10" long)



Also, this is my first larch, so any tips and tricks from people that have experience with larch is greatly appreciated!

 

[sorce]

I think cutting through the graft can prove either a blessing or a curse.

It may help to have the additional lines of old healing to help heal it, but it also may make it bulge more.

I'd probably do the old half way through thing, the facing side first, so you're cutting through both connections half way. Then the back side.

Rather than cutting the left or right first, which would cut through an entire connection side.

I don't know when "winter" would be. But I don't like cutting anything so heavy till keeper buds are proving moving enough in spring to keep it alive.

You'd probably be ok to cut through half now, and get some tell on what healing and reconnecting may be by winter.

Sorce

 

[August44]

I can't believe that someone would have to buy a grafted Larch up in Canada. Don't they grow wild up there?

 

[LemonBonsai]

I think cutting through the graft can prove either a blessing or a curse.

It may help to have the additional lines of old healing to help heal it, but it also may make it bulge more.

I'd probably do the old half way through thing, the facing side first, so you're cutting through both connections half way. Then the back side.

Rather than cutting the left or right first, which would cut through an entire connection side.

I don't know when "winter" would be. But I don't like cutting anything so heavy till keeper buds are proving moving enough in spring to keep it alive.

You'd probably be ok to cut through half now, and get some tell on what healing and reconnecting may be by winter.

Sorce

By half do you mean to cut the tree down or is this "half way through" method something I am unfamiliar with

 

[LemonBonsai]

I can't believe that someone would have to buy a grafted Larch up in Canada. Don't they grow wild up there?

I believe the (japanese larch) grows in japan. However if they are grown in canada, they would probably be grown up in the mountains of BC. Either way havent been able to find this cultivar around here until now through a private seller

 

[August44]

Sorry if I sound critical. I have zillions of native Western Larch around here and can't imagine buying a grafted Larch just to get a Japanese one. I would rather just use native stock and not have the problem with the graft. Just my opinion of course.

 

[LemonBonsai]

Sorry if I sound critical. I have zillions of native Western Larch around here and can't imagine buying a grafted Larch just to get a Japanese one. I would rather just use native stock and not have the problem with the graft. Just my opinion of course.

No problem, the kaempferi haverbeck is actually a dwarf larch and is also considered to be a shrub form of a japanese larch. So it has different characteristics such as extremely dense growth and unusually thick shoots (at least from what I have read)

To be fair its also in my nature to collect trees that are not native to canada lol. My collection is probably made up of 85% tropicals and 15% native

 

[JeffS73]

It might be safer to reduce the rootstock foliage bit by bit. I would remove the shoot that is growing left in your first picture, it's competing with your grafted material. Then I'd reduce the rest of the rootstock foliage so that it's lower in height than the grafted material. In my climate (summer now) I could do this now, it would heal easily and the energy would be redirected primarily to the graft, strengthening it and possibly inducing a fkush of growth. Then, depending on health i'd follow Sorces plan a year or two later.

 

[LemonBonsai]

It might be safer to reduce the rootstock foliage bit by bit. I would remove the shoot that is growing left in your first picture, it's competing with your grafted material. Then I'd reduce the rest of the rootstock foliage so that it's lower in height than the grafted material. In my climate (summer now) I could do this now, it would heal easily and the energy would be redirected primarily to the graft, strengthening it and possibly inducing a fkush of growth. Then, depending on health i'd follow Sorces plan a year or two later.

I dont think any of my current foliage is from the rootstock, in the second picture you can see the branch that your saying to cut off is coming from the inside part of the graft line which would mean its growing from the grafted variety no? Its also the branch that I wanted to use for the new leader as specified in picture 3.

This branch is from the rootstock?

 

[JeffS73]

Ah, my mistake, you're right, it is all grafted material. I'm sorry about that.

My understanding is, you want to keep the shoot marked in green, am I right? I'm suggesting cut off the shoot I've marked in red, because it looks like it's shading out the green shoot. It might be safer to just reduce this so its less dominant. Then I'd reduce but not remove the area with dashed red, so that the green shoot becomes dominant. I hope this is a bit clearer My plan is really just about migrating dominance to the shoot you want to keep, rather than doing all the work at once. In my limited experience, cultivars are less vigorous than the species, so may need a gentler approach.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I think I would attempt to air layer off the larger section and create a second tree. I have never tried it but larch reportedly layer easily. Probably too late for this season though.

 

[sorce]

By half do you mean to cut the tree down or is this "half way through" method something I am unfamiliar with

Likely the unfamiliar.

Someone just posted one with good pictures, but I can't remember where or who. Think it was a pine.

Perhaps the group remembers?

Or has a good article location on the subject?

You literally chop half the chop, allow for a start to healing, then chop all the way through later.

If I find something in it I'll head you there.

Sorce

 

[LemonBonsai]

Ah, my mistake, you're right, it is all grafted material. I'm sorry about that.
View attachment 447351
My understanding is, you want to keep the shoot marked in green, am I right? I'm suggesting cut off the shoot I've marked in red, because it looks like it's shading out the green shoot. It might be safer to just reduce this so its less dominant. Then I'd reduce but not remove the area with dashed red, so that the green shoot becomes dominant. I hope this is a bit clearer My plan is really just about migrating dominance to the shoot you want to keep, rather than doing all the work at once. In my limited experience, cultivars are less vigorous than the species, so may need a gentler approach.

Ah i see yes that was my plan, eventually to remove all but that one green branch you have highlighted to fix my reverse taper, but I see a more gentle approach would be beneficial to the tree. Is pruning like this ok to do in the middle of summer or should I wait until winter when the sap is in the roots? Im in no rush to get this guy started since I need to wait for apring for a repot anyways so whatever is best for the tree.

 

[LemonBonsai]

I think I would attempt to air layer off the larger section and create a second tree. I have never tried it but larch reportedly layer easily. Probably too late for this season though.

Interesting, i may attempt that next season, although I have never had any success with air layering

 

[LemonBonsai]

I think I would attempt to air layer off the larger section and create a second tree. I have never tried it but larch reportedly layer easily. Probably too late for this season though.

Interesting, i may attempt that next season, although I have never had any success with air layering

Likely the unfamiliar.

Someone just posted one with good pictures, but I can't remember where or who. Think it was a pine.

Perhaps the group remembers?

Or has a good article location on the subject?

You literally chop half the chop, allow for a start to healing, then chop all the way through later.

If I find something in it I'll head you there.

Sorce

I see. Well if you do find something I would be very interested in learning a new tactic

 

[palafr01]

I don't know if someone has suggested it yet, but why not get some larch whips and use them to make thread/approach grafts to create a new root system at or close to the bulge. You might have to grow out your tree for a few years before it is large enough to do the grafts, but that would solve the bulging problem. Grafting at the bulge would turn that fault into a feature as the base will swell as your larch grows. I have not grafted on larch, but thread grafting is pretty straight forward and there's plenty of information here and on the web on the technique. Hopefully the more experienced folks here can chime in and provide their opinions.

 

[sorce]

new tactic

I looked as far as I could for that thread, it was so well photoed I really want that person to get credit for posting it.

You should be able to find stuff on the topic, I just really want you to see that thread!

Truth though, I'm with @August44 , so use this tree to learn anything!

Sorce

 

[JeffS73]

Ah i see yes that was my plan, eventually to remove all but that one green branch you have highlighted to fix my reverse taper, but I see a more gentle approach would be beneficial to the tree. Is pruning like this ok to do in the middle of summer or should I wait until winter when the sap is in the roots? Im in no rush to get this guy started since I need to wait for apring for a repot anyways so whatever is best for the tree.

I haven't had problems pruning up to 3yr old wood off L.Kaempferii in Summer, it typically kicks off a growth spurt. On the other hand, I've had significant dieback when pruning in Winter/ early Spring. I've only been growing Larch for 3 years though! On your tree I'd try pruning back a little, and see how it responds.

 

[LemonBonsai]

I don't know if someone has suggested it yet, but why not get some larch whips and use them to make thread/approach grafts to create a new root system at or close to the bulge. You might have to grow out your tree for a few years before it is large enough to do the grafts, but that would solve the bulging problem. Grafting at the bulge would turn that fault into a feature as the base will swell as your larch grows. I have not grafted on larch, but thread grafting is pretty straight forward and there's plenty of information here and on the web on the technique. Hopefully the more experienced folks here can chime in and provide their opinions.

So many options haha. Good suggestion, for right now I think I am just going to prune some off the top, see how it reacts and such, but ill keep that in mind as an option I can go down for sure.

I haven't had problems pruning up to 3yr old wood off L.Kaempferii in Summer, it typically kicks off a growth spurt. On the other hand, I've had significant dieback when pruning in Winter/ early Spring. I've only been growing Larch for 3 years though! On your tree I'd try pruning back a little, and see how it responds.

Interesting, good to know. And your 3 years of larch is about the same time I have been doing bonsai in general so its worth alot haha. Ill try it and see how it reacts. Also wanted to see if anything comes off the cuttings. Not sure if it will work at all, but might as well try and if I get one to root I can have another clone to do further testing on. Thanks for all the help guys

 

[AlainK]

This one is grafted, isn't it ? I think I can see a bulge down the trunk.

To me, the first thing to do would be to put it in a shallower pot when repotting it just before budbreak.

Then, a year later, maybe you can think of options for the upper part...

"Précipitation = inefficacité"...